Tropic Thunder trumps the Star Wars toon

[jemboy2004]

I took my godson who's almost 5 now and he sat though it and told me it was AWESOME when it was done and to me it was worth the price of admission because he loved it.

I thought it was good too.

[Hector]

Remember guys, my opinion on Clones is from an adult without kids, I fully understand if your kids like it...that's worth more than any opinion...so I'm glad you and your family had a great time at the movies, that's what really counts here.

[Vortigern99]

Yeah, it's helpful to keep in mind that the CW movie is a kids' TV show getting a bonus theatrical release. It's just not going to be as good as a feature film. That said, alot of oldtime fans (like darklord1967) are saying this new movie has an "Original Trilogy" feel in terms of the characterizations and the humor. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

EDIT: And I don't mind that a ludicrous comedy is trumping it at the B.O. because the SW live-action films have had their day in the sun. I saw Tropic Thunder the other day and I laughed my proverbial *** off.

[BlackKnight]

I wanna see both of these.

[darklord1967]

I went to see Pineapple Express (hilarious flick)...and then I snucked in to see Clones.

I'm sorry, I walked out...it has nothing to do with loosing your childhood...I love animated feature films, everything from Pixar is gold...the last one I saw was WALL-E...it was a WONDERFUL film, beautifully rendered, great story, with characters that you cared about (and they were robots for crying out loud).

But Clones? Sorry, it was mediocre at best...nothing to do with being too grown up...it just wasn't very good.

My humble opinion of course.

Just your "humble opinion"?

So your "humble opinion" is based on sneaking in to see Clone Wars (maybe or maybe not already in progress), and leaving before it was over?

Okay.

No offense at all intended, hermano. You know I like you a lot. But that doesn't sound very "humble" at all.

It sounds cynical.

Let me put it this way: We all loved seeing The Dark Knight this summer. And it served as fodder for some pretty heated debates around here.

But what would YOU think of the "humble opinion" of someone who came to this forum and said they did not care for The Dark Knight while not even having seen it in its entirety?

You say that this is NOT about your "...lost childhood...". And I have no reason to disbelieve you.

However, I also cannot help but feel that you also might NOT consider yourself an avid STAR WARS fan.

After all, most avid STAR WARS fans that I know of would never sneak in to see any STAR WARS film. They would just pay.

Most avid STAR WARS fans that I know of would never walk in on a STAR WARS film (already in progress) as their first viewing of it.

And virtually all avid STAR WARS fans that I know of would never walk out on a STAR WARS film, especially one that packs as much of an ACTION WHALLOP as the opening 10 minutes of this one does (and then consistently contiues to do throughout).

This is not an attack, Hector. Please don't take it as such. It's just an observation. It's like saying most avid Batman fans would never sneak in to see The Dark Knight, or catch it already in progress for their first viewing.

Probably a truthful statement.

In either case, I certainly don't mean to imply that I never snuck into a movie. I absolutely have.

But I have never done so with a film or film series that I had any kind of emotional investment in.

That's ultimately my point here. Most of the people who are going to love Clone Wars (and other STAR WARS film offerings) are typically people who have an emotional investment in the saga.

If you are NOT emotionally invested in the characters, their histories, and their (known futures), then this STAR WARS film is just another long, loud, Special Effects show.

If you are emotionally invested, then the many character moments sprinked througout this (and other) STAR WARS film(s) are indeed the very CORE of the enjoyment.

I cannot go into scene specifics without giving away spoilers.

Suffice it to say that in my own "humble opinion", it is impossible to give something a fair chance while having a cynical outlook toward it.

[Vortigern99]

The residents of a house in Your Neighborhood, USA put some of their useless household items out by the curb -- items they consider trash because they no longer find use or value in them.

A neighbor wanders by, sees the pile of goods, and quickly identifies a few items s/he believes to be useful and valuable. S/he piles them in the back of his/her vehicle, goes home with them, and delights in his/her good fortune and valuable acquisition.

It's the same thing with movies, music, art, literature, etc. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

[darklord1967]

I've loved all the Star Wars flicks...every one of them. I've thought all 6 have told a cohesive, flowing story.

I can't wait to see Clone Wars with my 3 boys. I just want to sit back and lose myself for about an hour and a half as I live again in the Star Wars universe...

I couldn't agree more. There ARE some minor story inconsistencies between the Prequel Trilogy and the Original Trilogy of films. But by and large they are certainly one, cohesive flowing story that is compelling, well-written, stylistically consistent, and more than just a little bit entertaining.

The films are not perfect. No films are. And George Lucas's revisionist history regarding the muckng around of the narrative (and spiritual) points of the stories IS a little... off putting.

For example, the notion of Anakin Skywalker's "death" at the hands of Darth Vader (as described by old Obi-Wan in A NEW HOPE and then later on in RETURN OF THE JEDI) never sat well with me at all. And it was even LESS acceptible after seeing the events of the prequels.

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader... who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil... helped The Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of The Force."

Really? How can you LIE like that and keep a straight face, Ben?? Shheeeesh!!!

(Uh-oh. I can just feel the approach of a philosophical debate regarding spiritual death versus physical death and whether or not Obi-Wan Kenobi "lied" when he said those words.)

However, that little quibble aside, the entire STAR WARS Saga is (in my eyes) a masterpiece of cinematic entertainment and filmmaking innovation. I have NEVER had a better cinema-going experience than the ones I had seeing each of those films with a couple of thousand other screaming excited fans on openning day / night.

A LOT of people (myself included) owe a LOT very special memories to George Lucas and his STAR WARS Saga.

.

[BlackKnight]

I don't think Obi-Wan Lied At all imo .

Look at it this way.... In Episode 3 Anikan did go to the Jedi Temple & killed a bunch of Jedi's ,.. as well as that Whole thing with Mace Windu.

When Anikan let himself become Darth Vader ,.. to Obi-Wan, the day he became Vader ,.. Anikan Died. Thus Vader Killed Anikan. Just my take.

[txteach]

Darklord, very insightful posts my friend. I'm gonna check out Clone Wars tonight!

[darklord1967]

I don't think Obi-Wan Lied At all imo .

Look at it this way.... In Episode 3 Anikan did go to the Jedi Temple & killed a bunch of Jedi's ,.. as well as that Whole thing with Mace Windu.

When Anikan let himself become Darth Vader ,.. to Obi-Wan, the day he became Vader ,.. Anikan Died. Thus Vader Killed Anikan. Just my take.

DING!! DING!! (and the combatants approach each other during round one of this new match...)


Okay. Here's how I see it:

Let's be clear: I do NOT reject the sincerity of Ben Kenobi's words to Luke (in A NEW HOPE) in terms of his assertion that Darth Vader "... helped the Empire hunt down and destory The Jedi Knights..."

No. that all seems to be in line with what we saw in REVENGE OF THE SITH and what will be chronicled in officially recognized canonical offerings like this fall's The Force Unleashed video game (which is set in the years between EP III and EP IV)

No, It's everything else that Kenobi said that I have a problem with... namely in regards to Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader's fate.

Before I continue, let's establish a few things here:

a) The prequel films as they exist (regardless of your opinion of them) are indeed an officially recognized part of STAR WARS canon. Lucasfilm says so. And most importantly, George Lucas himself says so... and HE'S the author.

b) George Lucas does NOT consider Obi-Wan's description of Anakin Skywalker's fate (as described in A NEW HOPE) to be a "lie". So in many ways, THAT'S one big strike against my viewpoint on this.

c) Old Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi (in A NEW HOPE) is NOT pathological, crazy, nor suffering from any kind of memory loss or delusion (regarding the events of the Clone Wars)

d) As a Jedi Knight, Kenobi may have had an occasional tendency to see things from a spiritual standpoint rather than a physical one (certainly in his old age)

e) A "lie" is defined as a factually un-truthful statement, intentionally presented as truth for the purpose of misleading or decieveing another individual.

f) The scene in question (from A NEW HOPE) played exactly as follows:

LUKE: How did my father die?

BEN: (uncomfortable pause) A Young jedi named Darth Vader... who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of The Force.


g) The other scene pertinent to this discussion (from RETURN OF THE JEDI) played as follows:


LUKE: Obi-Wan. Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father.

BEN: Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.



Okay. I'll break my opinion into various posts here so as not to make them into ONE Impossibly long one.



END OF PART ONE

[YANOULI]

I'm really looking forward to seeing this when comes out here.
Just the idea of a white actor having plastic surgery to play a black guy makes me laugh.

[darklord1967]

PART TWO

In order for Ben Obi Wan Kenobi's words to Luke (from A NEW HOPE) to be considered truthful, ALL of the following MUST be in place.

1) Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader must be two separate physical individuals.

2) Obi-Wan Kenobi must be referring to Anakin's "physical death", and NOT to Anakin's "spiritual death".

3) Obi-Wan Kenobi must have witnessed (or legitimately believed in his own mind) that one individual (Darth Vader) was responsible for terminating the physical life of another individual (Anakin Skywalker)

4) Obi Wan Kenobi MUST have had more than one pupil under his tutelage. One of them MUST have been a "jedi" named Darth Vader.

5) MOST IMPORTANTLY: These facts must NOT contradict Obi-Wan Kenobi's OWN conscious belief system (point of view).

Even a factually incorrect statement IS NOT A LIE if the speaker is un-aware that it's factually incorrect.


Okay. Let's examine these one by one:

1) Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader were NOT two separate physical individuals. And Obi-Wan knew this at the time of his statement to Luke. He intentionally designed his words to create the false impression that he was takling about two separate physical men. Verdict: A LIE.


2) Luke Skywalker's question "How did my father die?" was a simple question from a simple farmboy inquiring about his father's PHYSICAL fate. Obi-Wan understood this. He intentionally selected an answer that was (loosely)based on his SPIRITUAL belief system, and that misleadingly and decietfully indicated a PHYSICAL fate. Verdict: A LIE.

3) Obi-Wan kenobi did NOT witness one individual (Darth Vader) physically murdering another (Anakin Skywalker) ... Impossible since they are physically the same person. Most importantly, HE DID NOT BELEIVE that "murder" (by it's very definition) at the hands of Darth Vader was Anakin's fate. Proof?

BEN: Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.

Well Obi-Wan describes quite a few things happening to Anakin Skywalker here. Seduction. Abandonment of a previous identity ("ceased to be"), and the adoption of a new identity ("became").

He even makes reference to Anakin's character and spiritual goodness being "destroyed". Notice how he studiously avoided the word "MURDER"... which was the terminology he falsely used back on Tatooine with Luke.

And what IS a "murder" (even from Obi-Wan's "point of view")? Well, that act is defined as one (physical individual) terminating the physical life-sustaining functions of another (physical individual) against their will.

That's NOT what happened to Anakin Sywalker... and Obi-Wan, knew it.

The definition / connotation of "murder" is very specific. For example:

If the person who's physical life is being terminated requests that another individual do the deed, then it's not a "murder"... it's an assisted suicide.

If one individual kills, say, a rapist or murderer in self defense of their own life in peril, then their actions are not defined as a "murder".

If a person is killed in an auto accident, we do NOT say that the other driver "murdered" them.

A "murder" has not, does not, can not, and will not ever refer to a "spiritual death", "accidental death", or even a "self-inflicted" death... even in Obi-Wan's belief system. Those types of death have their own very specific labels.

Additionally, the word "destroyed" (as Obi-Wan said in "Jedi) is a much more general word that can easily incorporate a reference to a spiritual death.

Many things can be "destroyed".

But ONLY a living, breathing, eating, drinking, sleeping and crapping individual (who desires continued life) can be "murdered". Not their "spirit".

Buildings can be destroyed during a natural disaster. Someone's quality of life can be destroyed if they are suddenly paralyzed. A beautiful picnic on a sunny day in the park can be "destroyed" by a sudden rain storm. And, yes... someone's "good spirit" can be destroyed due to bad influences, narcotics use, etc.

Clearly, usage of the term "destroyed" is NOT limited to the world of the physical. It is an inter-changeable term used to describe the termination of existence of many different types of physical and non-physical things.

However, usage of the term "murder" is NOT interchangeable. It can only mean ONE thing... even from "Obi-Wan's point of view".

"Murder" is a specific KIND of destruction. NOT the other way around. Obi-Wan understood this.

It is NOT valid to present the words "murdered " and "destroyed" interchangeably and say they mean the same thing.

They do not.

Those buildings that I mentioned that may be "destroyed" in a natural disaster are certainly NOT examples of "murder", for example.


4) We can see from the prequel films that Obi-Wan Kenobi only ever had ONE pupil... and it was Anakin Skywalker. By referring to Darth Vader as "... a pupil of mine...", Obi-Wan subtlely (and falsely) indicated that more than one pupil studied under his care... kinda like a sensei. This would have made a "murder" (by definition) entirely possible. But Obi-Wan training more than one student was certainly NOT the case.

If you disagree with my assessment on this, the next time you introduce your spouse to someone try saying "Hi, this is Jane. She's a wife of mine. Or "Hi, this is Bill. He's a husband of mine.

You'll quickly find yourself in the dog house.

Furthermore, regardless whether Obi-Wan's "point of view" is physical or spiritual, he still LIED.

If Obi-Wan saw Anakin and Darth as two separate spiritual entities and personalities (as he claims to), then "Darth Vader" was never a young "jedi" nor was he ever a "pupil' under his tutelage.

He was, instead, an angry Sith Lord and his sworn enemy from the moment he was "born".

It was the Anakin Skywalker personality who was his "pupil" and who was the "young Jedi".


If instead, he saw Darth and Anakin as two separate physical men then he either

a) He is pathological (which we ruled out) because they are ONE man physically.
AND / OR

b) He LIED to Luke because he did NOT witness nor believe that the one physical individual (Darth) murdered the other physical individual (Anakin). No such event took place for him to witness or be told about.

He was most clear about what HE BELIEVED to be Anakin's fate (during his RETURN OF THE JEDI speech). HE BELIEVED that Anakin was transformed into someone else... that's not "murdered"... not even from his own point of view.

VERDICT: A LIE.



5) Obi-Wan Kenobi words of clarification (and stated belief system) (in RETURN OF THE JEDI) directly contradict his statements from (A NEW HOPE).

VERDICT: Obi-Wan Kenobi= Liar, Liar pants on fire.

[MIB41]

We went to a drive-in this weekend to see the original Halloween and Mirrors. It was actually a triple bill with Happenings as well, but we were too tired by the time that one was starting (approximately 1:30 AM). In the back they also had the Clone Wars playing. It looked okay, but nothing very eye catching. When your talking about animation, it either strikes you or it doesn't. This didn't. As a matter of fact I was surprised by it's "video-game" style of anime'. Anyway the kids watched some of it between movies and didn't care for it. I think this is pretty much for the diehards and a younger audience. I think the Clone Wars should have been covered in the live action trilogy. Anyway Lucas gave the fans another feature...and new toys to buy.

[thunderbolt]

Face it Darklord, ObiWan was a truth stretching politician thru and thru.

[Raydeen1]

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