5th time is not a charm for Mark David Chapman

[Hector]

You are against capital punishment, I'm for capital punishment...it's pointless to keep this going....I mean...we can keep on going until we turn blue...but you got your beliefs, I got mine.

[Vortigern99]

Because the opinions of Americans are somehow inherently more "correct" than the rest of the world? That's an interesting position, but if the majority of Americans jumped off a bridge, or for example supported a war that would prove disastrous and ill-advised, I'm not sure I would follow.

Also, there is the matter of wrongful incrimination. DNA evidence has in the last few years exonerated a number of people once headed for death row, and has even shown that some people have been wrongly executed. Those are deaths that happened as a result of this system you guys are supporting. If the death penalty were abolished, there would be no chance another innocent person would be put to death by the state. Good lord, the very reason the penalty exists is to punish those who put innocent people to death! If the state is doing the same thing, shouldn't those responsible put themselves to death? The whole enterprise is absurd and morally reprehensible.

[Hector]

Again, the majority of nations in the world disagrees with you, Seeker. You appear to believe that all persons who suffer a murder of a close loved one will react by seeking the execution of those they deem responsible. This is simply not the case. In the last 5-10 minutes I've read numerous on-line articles and accounts about family members who seek forgiveness and healing rather than blood and retribution. Hence your suggestion, that if I were to suffer such a loss I would seek homicidal vengeance, is demonstrably false.

Also, this discussion is not about loss of close relatives and friends, which appears to be your platform, but rather about losing a public figure, a beloved musician who was not in close personal contact with anyone currently engaged in this discussion. Unless and until Yoko Ono, Sean or Julian Lennon calls for Chapman's execution, which to date they has not, your express opinion that people who lose loved ones automatically seek fatal revenge is not only baseless, it is irrelevant to this discussion.

What is relevant is the matter of life imprisonment. If your aim is to keep the perpetrator from killing again, life imprisonment achieves this effect in a manner that does not destroy another human life in the service of continuing the cycle of vengeance. All of the great mythic literature of the West -- from the New Testament to Malory's Morte D'Arthur to The Lord of the Rings to Batman comics -- is a testament to the moral correctness of mercy and forgiveness. The US Constitution also forbids "cruel and unusual punishment", which death by any means you care to name most certainly is. Europe, Canada (whose murder rate is practically nil), and many US states, among other nations of the world, have stricken the death penalty from their lawbooks, and many others -- including in South America, Russia and most of Africa -- have not practiced their existing execution laws for the last decade or more.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are by far in the minority of the sum total of world opinion in this.

The majority of Americans support capital punishment...that's what counts in my book.

Whatever the rest of the world think is pretty much irrelevant to me.

Fry the sucker, fry him now.

[huedell]

Being a meat packer myself I gotta say, I hate when I am out in the bar and inevitably some drunk recognizes me and starts in with the "hey man, pack some meat for us", "c'mon do that funny meat pack thing" or "hey, do that line from the day you packed that meat in the wrong container" Equally annoying is when they start quoting great meat packing lines I have said or worse still when they try to act them out.

But, it is something I accepted when I joined the glamorous world of meat packing. I knew what I was getting into. It isn't all bright lights and sweet, sweet smells, my friends.

Can you imagine the reaction of a meat packer if some one was actually that
much of a fan of their company that they wanted to talk to them---
and get to know more about the history of the company etc.
when all the guy wanted to do was drink his beer in peace
without recrimination for sluffing off the "fan"???

"But hey meat packing man you owe me some courtesy, man!
You admitted it yourself----you knew what you were
getting into when you started that career.
Yes! What you were getting into was meeting my
expectations of fan appreciation!!! Meet them expectations Meat Man"

[Johnny]

Being a meat packer myself I gotta say, I hate when I am out in the bar and inevitably some drunk recognizes me and starts in with the "hey man, pack some meat for us", "c'mon do that funny meat pack thing" or "hey, do that line from the day you packed that meat in the wrong container" Equally annoying is when they start quoting great meat packing lines I have said or worse still when they try to act them out.

But, it is something I accepted when I joined the glamorous world of meat packing. I knew what I was getting into. It isn't all bright lights and sweet, sweet smells, my friends.

[huedell]

wow----all kinds of unintentional connections there Bill^^^^^

(I'll take this opportunity, also to say that my "meat packer" metaphor actually
still stands--- but ----to explain it to Raydeen dilutes the point...which basically
is why the HECK is the field of entertainment the most scrutinized when it
comes to performance "off the clock"?----it's worse than policemen, teachers,
and lawyers combined----HEY I'll take the oipposite of Raydeen's statement
...I say, if it annoys you that rock stars, actors etc. could actually do
their creative jobs and have no more obligations----then either calm
down and ignore that sensible concept OR actually WORK to BECOME an
entertainer to getchya some of those tasty benefits thatthey supposedly have!)

[Bill]

Tesco said it best.

[huedell]

You TOTALLY missed the point and took everything I said to some weird, out of
context point.

*sigh*

Actually I totally got your point----I'll tell ya where I just screwed up royally---

it was with the metaphor I used to show how twisted your original post's philosophy
really was.

Here's the proof that my original post minus the meat packer metaphor
supports what I'm trying to say after fully understanding your post.....you said:

All that said, if you don't want the attention, maybe it's time to look at a
different career?????

Even AFTER my miswritten observation of your post---your follow up post
confirms what I got from your original post...

You'll suggest a celeb getting a different career because they'd prefer to not
be "your version" of "gracious" and hang with fans and be buddy-buddy like
Dime was----and, was, in your eyes "supposed" to be????

Show me where it's written that entertainers have to work extra hard
outside of their actual work performance to curry a fan's approval of
how they "should" be-----it's ludicrous man.

And, I repeat----it's misplaced attitudes and expectations like yours
that contribute to getting nutjobs angry at celebrity people.

[Raydeen1]

Apples and oranges. You do not have to be a fan of JimBob down at the meat packing plant to buy meat. This statement is totally absurd. It's NOT entertainment.

You TOTALLY missed the point and took everything I said to some weird, out of context point.

I'm a muscian. I've met PLENTY of celebs and I never said ANYTHING about the muscians HAVING to hang with fans. I said Dime was GRACIOUS and a wonderful human being. The way celebs SHOULD be. GRACIOUS. If not for the fans, they'd have nothing. I always treated fans of my band like I'd want to be treated. If they don't buy your tapes, you get nothing. It's simple math. Have a big ego and **** all over your fans and when they don't buy your stuff anymore, who's to blame? I NEVER said they must stop buying groceries or eat a meal or whatever you're getting at.

All that said, if you don't want the attention, maybe it's time to look at a different career?????

Raydeen1 wrote:


And without people to buy "meat" people at a meat packing plant would
also have something that equals "zero"? Is that your philosophy too?
Of course not.

That would mean that a meat packing guy has to hang out with his customers
after hours because they buy meat from his company----um----no---of course not.

Apologies, but I never understood this philosophy---it seems like ifrustrated mpassioned
"misplaced entitlement" on the part of the music fan community
(even your post drips with angry resentment)

and ironically this mindset can foster the kind of resentment that leads to fan violence
and murder in the first place----

"hey they're 'just like us' and they're not behaving the way I want them too--
--so I'm mad."----well, don't YOU want your friggin' privacy and not to be hassled
when you're not performing (i.e. "working") ???

If a celebrity you respect hangs out with you when you'd like---it's a more of a "gift" not a "given"

[huedell]

Raydeen1 wrote:

If it weren't for the fans, you'd have nothing. It's that simple. Alot of celebs lose
track of that. Oh I have talent... Yeah well without someone to buy your record or
whatever, your talent means exactly ZERO.

And without people to buy "meat" people at a meat packing plant would
also have something that equals "zero"? Is that your philosophy too?
Of course not.

That would mean that a meat packing guy has to hang out with his customers
after hours because they buy meat from his company----um----no---of course not.

Apologies, but I never understood this philosophy---it seems like ifrustrated mpassioned
"misplaced entitlement" on the part of the music fan community
(even your post drips with angry resentment)

and ironically this mindset can foster the kind of resentment that leads to fan violence
and murder in the first place----

"hey they're 'just like us' and they're not behaving the way I want them too--
--so I'm mad."----well, don't YOU want your friggin' privacy and not to be hassled
when you're not performing (i.e. "working") ???

If a celebrity you respect hangs out with you when you'd like---it's a more of a "gift" not a "given"

[Seeker]

There are monsters out there that plain and simple will not stop doing what they do. Whether they are on the street still or even in jail. If there is even a small chance these people get out its too much.

The fact that these people still commit horrendous crimes against fellow inmates all the time. You have lifers racking up more body counts in prison, what can they do to them? You can't confine everybody. Is it fair that a minor criminal, maybe a kid who made a mistake get raped,tortured or killed?

Talk to a corrections guard sometime how safe they feel with these guys.

[Raydeen1]

Man,
I was huge Beatles fan growing up. I used to snag albums and 45s at yard sales for my Mom and I.

I didn't exactly get it when JL was killed. I was kind of in denial I guess. I just didn't clue in. I was only 11 I think.

Much the same way poor Dimebag was shot on stage and almost or on the same day! Both men were hugely influentual. Darryl was one of the most gracious, genuine, down to Earth people you could ever have the privlege to meet. The man would hand guitars out to young fans, bring fans on the bus and just hang out. He was the embodiment of what a rock star should be. GRACIOUS. If it weren't for the fans, you'd have nothing. It's that simple. Alot of celebs lose track of that. Oh I have talent... Yeah well without someone to buy your record or whatever, your talent means exactly ZERO...but I digress.

John was an icon and a hero to a lot of people and he was just taken away from those people by some twisted scumbag. You can't blame them for being angry or hurt. It was vicious and so unneccesary.

[Vortigern99]

I was right there, too; I've already given my account of how deeply John's death affected me. Later, when I was in my 20s and beginning to formulate my code of ethics and morality, I used to tell people I didn't hate anyone because hate was wrong -- except against Hitler and MD Chapman. Those people, I reasoned, were "okay "to hate, because they had taken so much from the world.

But now, in my late 30s, I've moved past even those hatreds. Their hate, their murderousness, is not mine; it came from them and does not belong to me. Fellow MM member Huedell cited STAR WARS earlier in this thread, and his points are well-taken. Yoda states that "hate leads to suffering" and so it does, because it perpetuates the cycle of pain and misery and homicidal rage. Let go of that hate, and lead a more peaceful existence without the need to suffer over emotional wounds and loss to death of loved ones.

I've never lost a loved one to murder, but I lost my sister to AIDS and my first wife to a number of tragic factors, including possible medical malpractice. If I were to contemplate the injustice of those events and hold a grudge against those I deem resposible, my life would be a wasteland of hatred and thoughts of revenge. So I let it go. Does this mean that I did not love my sister or my first wife; that I do not miss them, dream about them, want them to come back? Of course not. But they would not want me to suffer over their loss: that's the key. Their suffering has ended, and they would not want me to get caught up in hate and loss and anger over their passing.

So I reckon is the case with John Lennon. His early life was marked by anger and a feeling of persecution and injustice; but later in life, shortly before his death in fact, he became a more mellow person, no longer plagued by his youthful demons. Surely John would want the same from us. Surely John would want us to celebrate his memory through music, or contemplation of his social commentary or protests against political injustice -- not mad hatred of the disturbed individual who took his life.

[kingdom warrior]

Capital Punishment is always a thorny issue, because it is two issues, one sociological and one personal. People always say "If someone killed your family and friends...etc. etc."

Once you personalize it of course almost anyone would have an emotional reaction and pick up a gun, a club, whatever was handy and take the perpetrators out without any hesitation.

I loved John Lennon. He is one of my heroes. The night he was shot I was singing in a band at a club called Hoopers in Ottawa. We got the news at the club. We debated about cancelling the rest of the show because we were so distraught. Instead we did a full Beatles set to a shocked and silent crowd.

When you make it personal it is impossible to debate. No rational person does not think that MDC deserves the worst punishment imaginable. I was enraged with this man for years. He killed one of the most authentic, free thinking, truth seeker who has ever lived.

But...

As a society we can not sink to the level of the lowest common denominator. What seperates us from the "scum" the "heartless" is we have compassion. We are better than that. If we behave as the ones we despise do what do we become?

It is a terribly complex and disturbing subject. I absolutely understand the anger and desire for justice. I just think we have to rise above the worst of us for our society to remain decent.

Well said!

[Johnny]

Capital Punishment is always a thorny issue, because it is two issues, one sociological and one personal. People always say "If someone killed your family and friends...etc. etc."

Once you personalize it of course almost anyone would have an emotional reaction and pick up a gun, a club, whatever was handy and take the perpetrators out without any hesitation.

I loved John Lennon. He is one of my heroes. The night he was shot I was singing in a band at a club called Hoopers in Ottawa. We got the news at the club. We debated about cancelling the rest of the show because we were so distraught. Instead we did a full Beatles set to a shocked and silent crowd.

When you make it personal it is impossible to debate. No rational person does not think that MDC deserves the worst punishment imaginable. I was enraged with this man for years. He killed one of the most authentic, free thinking, truth seekers who has ever lived.

But...

As a society we can not sink to the level of the lowest common denominator. What seperates us from the "scum" the "heartless" is that we have compassion. We are better than that. If we behave as the ones that we despise do, what do we become?

It is a terribly complex and disturbing subject. I absolutely understand the anger and desire for justice. I just think we have to rise above the worst of us for our society to remain decent.