UFO - over Cardiff Part II

[Bo8a_Fett]

They Live........get your glasses now!

[Hector]

Darklord, excellent posts (although we will continue disagreeing on many things on this subject matter).

I don't wanna get into religion because it's not allowed here.

Good posts though, brother.

[darklord1967]

Thanks a million, hermano!

[Adam West]

darklord,

I agree that your post is well stated. As I said, I have been studying this subject for the better part of my adult life and do not think that having a belief in intelligent design is contractidictory to what we know about science and the evolutionary process.

I just wanted to point out that not all Christians are close minded to the advancement of science and that they can go hand in hand without contradicting one another.

I'm have always been one to play devil's advocate when it comes to my own faith but as I continue to stay abreast of new developments I find that my personal faith strengthens and reconfirms what I believe to be true.

[Vortigern99]

AMM asked us not to get into a scientific debate (like we did over in the "ghost" thread), but I will respond, in brief, to darklord's assertions of alien visitation by pointing out that his ideas are just that: speculative, imaginative ideas with no evidence and no basis in factual events. We can believe anything we like -- I have no qualms about religion because it involves an act of faith, which by definition is believing what cannot be quantified -- but when we begin to advance the idea that aliens are among us and that they genetically engineered human DNA, that is the point at which evidence must be asked for to substantiate such radical and far-reaching claims. Maybe we should start another thread?

[YANOULI]

It's totally unrealistic to think that this is the only inhabited planet in all the known universes.

There will be life on planets that evolved whilst we were still crawling around in the slime and which will be Centuries in advance of our own technical capabilities and like us have set out to explore space and are now reaching us.

Do i believe in extraterrestrials? Yes
Have they Visited us? possibly
Are all UFO's alien craft? No

[YANOULI]

Hmmm, you're suggesting time traveling scientists / explorers who are using time-warp technology to visit their own past history (our "present").

Interesting theory, and one that I've considered myself.

If you are correct, and the visitors in question are human, then they have evolved into a very different form (short, hairless, large eyes, and grey complexion) than our present one.

The implications of their appearence seems to suggest a planet of origin that is perpetually dark and with a different gravitational influence than Earth's.

If these visitors are human time travelers from Earth's far, distant future, then something RADICAL has happened to our planetary environment to cause such an extreme evolution.

Very interesting.

With all the talk of global warming etc, who knows what humans will look like in a few hundred years?

[darklord1967]

AMM asked us not to get into a scientific debate (like we did over in the "ghost" thread), but I will respond, in brief, to darklord's assertions of alien visitation by pointing out that his ideas are just that: speculative, imaginative ideas with no evidence and no basis in factual events. We can believe anything we like -- I have no qualms about religion because it involves an act of faith, which by definition is believing what cannot be quantified -- but when we begin to advance the idea that aliens are among us and that they genetically engineered human DNA, that is the point at which evidence must be asked for to substantiate such radical and far-reaching claims. Maybe we should start another thread?

There IS tons evidence for my ideas (about extraterrestrial visitation to this planet), and they DO have a basis in factual events.

With all due respect, V99, the dilemma we have here between us is that the evidence I'm referring to is summarily dismissed as "unacceptable", and "unreliable" by you and those who are like-minded because it does not follow a rigid scientific criteria that YOU consider acceptable.

But I and those who are like-minded are more than compelled by the myriad of legitimate photographs, video and very reliable anecdotes of airline pilots, clergymen, military officers, police officers... decent, sober people from all walks of life, and from all around the world... AND from at least one US President (Jimmy Carter).

In addition, we are NOT so quick to dismiss the compelling SCIENTIFIC observation of unusual phenomena that repeats worldwide in a virtually identical way (Re: Metallic implants inserted behind the eye or nose cavity of people who claim an abduction experience.)

Repetition is a required aspect of Scientific investigation. Yet doubters, such as yourself seem to be very willing to dismiss the repetition of documented phenomena like these implants.

Implants are NOT a figment of someone's overactive imagination.
Implants are NOT a case of worldwide hysteria where these people decide to jam an identical triangular sliver of metal behind their eye.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT FOR A SECOND. They are a very real, tangible phenomena.

The repeated regressive hypnosis therpay sessions undergone by people all over the world tell of abduction experiences perpertated by non-human visitors to this planet with a genetic / hybrid agenda.

I do not see how people from so many different walks of life, and from so many different cultures around the globe can possibly be coming up with the same stories, and decribing the same details and the same visitors... while under controlled hypnosis and SCIENTIFIC observation.

The bottom line is our differences of opinion on this matter stem from what we are each willing to accept as legitimate scientific evidence.

I am willing to accept the tangible solid evidence of implants in the bodies of hundreds of thousands of abductees around the globe.

Evidently you are not.

I am willing to accept the virtually identical (hidden / memory-blocked) anecdotes chronicled by thousands of abductees worldwide while under controlled hypnosis and scientific observation. In some cases, these hypnosis sessions are administered with the aid of tranquilizers to relax the individual (and curb conscious deciet).

Again, this is something you are not willing to accept.

As for my ideas on Time-travel, they are conjecture, supposition, and speculation. I freely admit that, and I believe I stated as much seeing as no one (that we know of) has ever artificially made trips through time.

However, my ideas ARE based on many of the very same solid scientific principles put forth by respected names in the scientifc community (Einstien, Hawking, Sagan, Heisenberg, Cavalos)... the very same principles used by doubters to "prove" that extra terrestrial visitation to his planet is so "impossible" due to the incredible distances and time involved to make such a trip.

[toystalker]

i just like to add im loving this thread now... its got real guts this 1

makes for exellent reading guys

cheers

[batgirl]

There is a brilliant guy over there in the states named Chuck Missler. He has gotten together with another guy named Mark Eastman, and they have done a ton of research on ufo sightings, abductions, etc. Makes for riveting viewing. You can see some of their stuff on youtube. There is a dvd available called return of the nephilim, which explores the origins of Giants in Mythology, and where they came from. He also believes we live in 10 plus dimensions and that these "visitors" dont come from outer space, but a different dimension. That why they can appear and dissapear, and dont follow the natural laws of physics.
Its interesting to say the least.

[Vortigern99]

There IS tons evidence for my ideas (about extraterrestrial visitation to this planet), and they DO have a basis in factual events.

If by "evidence" you mean personal anecdotes, once more I must disabuse you of the notion that stories told by human beings (who are prone to error, misapprehension and yes, even fraud) can or should be accepted as evidence. There is, and can be in such instances, no follow up beyond the hypothetical: no testing, no re-testing, no controls and no development of a theory based on further observed and quantified phenomena. Neither is there independent validation, another criteria for acceptance. Thus such stories cannot be considered constructive or explanatory toward a scientifically sound conclusion.

With all due respect, V99, the dilemma we have here between us is that the evidence I'm referring to is summarily dismissed as "unacceptable", and "unreliable" by you and those who are like-minded because it does not follow a rigid scientific criteria that YOU consider acceptable.

You put "YOU" in all caps as though I personally developed the scientific method. I did not; I am merely abiding by its guidelines in order to distinguish verifiable fact from imaginative speculation.

But I and those who are like-minded are more than compelled by the myriad of legitimate photographs, video and very reliable anecdotes of airline pilots, clergymen, military officers, police officers... decent, sober people from all walks of life, and from all around the world... AND from at least one US President (Jimmy Carter).

Experimental terrestrial aircraft, with flights conducted in secrecy by the military, are almost all that is required to explain such sightings. The rest might be false memory, hallucinations, and dream-state phenomena. Until there is hard evidence of extraterrestrial spacecraft, we cannot accept the anecdotes of any person as correct and valid, regardless of their rank or social standing. Otherwise we open the doors to credulity and the acceptance of any fantastic story by anyone who would care to deceive us, for whatever purpose they might indulge. Stories are not quantifiable phenomena, and do not serve as evidence toward a conclusive scientific theory.

In addition, we are NOT so quick to dismiss the compelling SCIENTIFIC observation of unusual phenomena that repeats worldwide in a virtually identical way (Re: Metallic implants inserted behind the eye or nose cavity of people who claim an abduction experience.)

Implants are NOT a figment of someone's overactive imagination. Implants are NOT a case of worldwide hysteria where these people decide to jam an identical triangular sliver of metal behind their eye.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT FOR A SECOND. They are a very real, tangible phenomena.


Repetition is a required aspect of Scientific investigation. Yet doubters, such as yourself seem to be very willing to dismiss the repetition of documented phenomena like these implants.

Observation of different events "repeated" by different individuals in different locales does not conform to the scientific method. I'm merely reporting the facts to you here. Each instance must be verified independently and be quantified in some way -- energetic measurements, indisputable photography, material proof, etc. Anecdotes alone do not suffice. As to implants, I've read up on them and as it turns out, on those rare occasions when such materials have been offered up for analysis, they turn out to be composed of ordinary, terrestrial alloys. This suggests hoaxing -- either by the individual presenting the specimen, or by some other human agency against the victim's knowledge. Whether you personally believe it or not, both of these explanations are far more likely than "aliens inserted them into my body". The leap to that conclusion is spurious and illogical, and points to a pre-conceived belief system that has nothing whatever to do with dispassionate investigation and quantification of the natural world.

The repeated regressive hypnosis therpay sessions undergone by people all over the world tell of abduction experiences perpertated by non-human visitors to this planet with a genetic / hybrid agenda.

If you study current thinking on hypnosis, you'll discover that it is now known to be a tool for unlocking the imaginative powers -- the playful, dreamlike, inventive faculties -- of the brain. Hypnosis has long since been discredited as a reliable source of factual reportage. "I was Marie Antoinette in a past life" or "gray men resembling those in Steven Spielberg's Close Encounters movie abducted me onto their spaceship" can hardly be accepted as legitimate events, regardless of how man people convey such dream-state imagery under hypnosis.

I do not see how people from so many different walks of life, and from so many different cultures around the globe can possibly be coming up with the same stories, and decribing the same details and the same visitors... while under controlled hypnosis and SCIENTIFIC observation.

Because it's now a shared "meme" on a global scale. The famous Hill case of the 60s, and such films as the Spielberg masterpiece I noted above, have for decades been familiar with persons worldwide. The idea of alien abduction is now well-known by virtually every person in the civilized world, and plays into basic, primal fears concerning invasion of home and body.

The bottom line is our differences of opinion on this matter stem from what we are each willing to accept as legitimate scientific evidence.

I am willing to accept the tangible solid evidence of implants in the bodies of hundreds of thousands of abductees around the globe.

Evidently you are not.

First, the acceptance of scientific evidence is not dictated by personal, individual opinion. It is dictated by the scientific method itself: forming a hypothesis, testing it and re-testing it with a control experiment to eventually produce a theory, which can then be peer-reviewed and if necessary challenged by others in the worldwide scientific community.

Second, the few implants you refer to which have undergone real analysis are composed of terrestrial metals and are clear evidence of hoaxing.

I am willing to accept the virtually identical (hidden / memory-blocked) anecdotes chronicled by thousands of abductees worldwide while under controlled hypnosis and scientific observation. In some cases, these hypnosis sessions are administered with the aid of tranquilizers to relax the individual (and curb conscious deciet).

Again, this is something you are not willing to accept.

That is because hypnosis is the key to unlocking the imagination, not a controlled investigation into real memory. You are operating under a misconception of what hypnosis is and does.

As for my ideas on Time-travel, they are conjecture, supposition, and speculation. I freely admit that, and I believe I stated as much seeing as no one (that we know of) has ever artificially made trips through time.

However, my ideas ARE based on many of the very same solid scientific principles put forth by respected names in the scientifc community (Einstien, Hawking, Sagan, Heisenberg, Cavalos)... the very same principles used by doubters to "prove" that extra terrestrial visitation to his planet is so "impossible" due to the incredible distances and time involved to make such a trip.

Ideas are awesome! I love them. It's fascinating to read such conjectures and imagine that they might be true. But until we have solid proof of extraterrestrial visitation (consisting of something more substantial than slivers of earthly metal supposedly found under the skin, or stories or even pictures of "lights in the sky" -- which could be experimental military aircraft) then your ideas will remain ideas.

[Vortigern99]

There is a brilliant guy over there in the states named Chuck Missler. He has gotten together with another guy named Mark Eastman, and they have done a ton of research on ufo sightings, abductions, etc. Makes for riveting viewing. You can see some of their stuff on youtube. There is a dvd available called return of the nephilim, which explores the origins of Giants in Mythology, and where they came from. He also believes we live in 10 plus dimensions and that these "visitors" dont come from outer space, but a different dimension. That why they can appear and dissapear, and dont follow the natural laws of physics.
Its interesting to say the least.

Among Missler's conclusions are that reptillian serpent people are living among us today, and are spoken of in the Bible as evil spirits used by God to lead us toward the end times. This may make for riveting viewing, but how seriously we can take this man's research is contingent upon our belief in biblical prophecy and our acceptance of reports of reptillian shape changers living among us.