The Ramones vs. The Sex Pistols

[monkey tennis]

The Sex Pistols could spit better...

In your face Music

[nvmbrsdoom5]

What Megoat and MisterDroid posted is pretty much true. The Pistols true "relevance" was that they influenced and inspired an entire musical movement that stretched beyond punk rock even. The whole Manchester scene, spawning bands as diverse as Buzzcocks, Joy Division, New Order, The Smiths, and Simply Red (!), was basically kickstarted by the Sex Pistols live appearance there in 1976. Whether or not you're a fan of the music that they created, there's just no way to denounce the massive impact and effect the Pistols had on music, especially in the U.K.
However, the effect that the Ramones had on them is paramount, to my mind, because of the impact that they had on both the NYC scene as well as the UK scene. Members of bands like the Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Damned, etc., have all stepped up and said that seeing the Ramones play live on their first UK tour was what truly kicked them up the backside and made them into the bands they became. So The Ramones truly did plant that initial seed, along with the New York Dolls to a lesser extent, that created both the U.S. punk scene and the U.K. scene.

In terms of who had better music.....well I enjoy them both but I'm a much bigger Ramones fan. At the same time, to be honest, it's alot easier to choose when you're pitting one band with twenty years worth of recordings up against another band who only had one officially released album. And while the Ramones' music might come off as repetetive and simplistic to some, I would'nt be too quick to write them off as only "fair" songwriters. They're written many lyrics, riffs, and melodic hooks that stick in your head for ages, and that's not very easy to do!

[misterdroid]

Dismissing Never Mind The Bollocks as just some sort of a "phony" or "put on" punk rock really misses the point. While it is true that there were some definite calculated maneuvers via Team McLaren and Co., the one record itself still stands as one of THE defining testaments in the history and progression of what is commonly referred to as PUNK ROCK. To argue otherwise is just plain silly.....

Without question... Yes they were put together under the guidance of McLaren. Yes, Sid couldn't play his way out of a wet paper sack (but sid features on none of the original studio recordings) And I have no doubt Malcolm used them to his own ends as much as he could, especially at the beginning. He was offering these guys a leg up out of the working class squalor of the UK in the mid 70's... but really how much could he have made off them? Dropped from label after label and leaving one LP and a couple of singles as historical record. No tracks made the charts, I can't imagine he got rich... it all probably cost him money. It did make Malcolm a pseudo celebrity and certainly got his name in the papers, but a Monkeys comparison is a bit unfair. The Monkeys were a product designed by a corporation to be sold to the masses. With a calculated "copycat" sound to the British Invasion bands. The Pistols may have come together under guidance but the sound was definitely organic. NOTHING sounded like them! Nothing. There is no way McLaren could have forced that. Bullocks sounds new today! I imagine his take was more along the lines of "Quirky, cute boys that can help me sell a few jumpers". He's clever, but a look at his business savvy shows a guy who merely rides trends. He went from selling teddy boy gear, to latex sex stuff and THEN, eventually to punk styles - AFTER the Pistols themselves, independently, defined it.
They had SO much influence, starting before bullocks or the singles hit the streets. SO many really great bands churned up in the wake of a what they were doing musically/socially. The damned, the clash, sioxsie, chelsea on and on so much happened after that... slaughter and the dogs, sham 69, anti-nowhere league. Even much later bands like the exploited, GBH and Broken Bones can trace back a direct lineage to the "filth and the fury".
It's tough for americans to wrap their heads around it, but London in the 70's was a helluva different place than new york. Yes-the Ramones were fun and catchy as hell. But the pistols absolutely redefined youth culture/ class systems and rock 'n roll... to this day.

Whew! I'm dizzy from standing on my soapbox so long... someone help me down so I can go to bed...

[megoat]

Dismissing Never Mind The Bollocks as just some sort of a "phony" or "put on" punk rock really misses the point. While it is true that there were some definite calculated maneuvers via Team McLaren and Co., the one record itself still stands as one of THE defining testaments in the history and progression of what is commonly referred to as PUNK ROCK. To argue otherwise is just plain silly.....

[Joe90]

I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. What do I know about Punk???

I am glad to see that many of you have called the SP's for what they were -- a punk version of the Monkees. I would not argue if one of you stepped up and asserted that the Monkees had more artistic credibility due to the song writing and their vocal abilities. I think that Malcolm McLaren's Madame Butterfly should be considered representative of his work in general: superficially pleasing -- if you like that sort of thing -- but without any real depth. I think The Ramones were more about the music, but then so were Brit bands like The Clash.

[misterdroid]

You misunderstood me. Didn't Malcolm assemble the Sex Pistols because he wanted The New York Dolls to come to England for him and they said no?

That I don't know... I have never heard that before. Malcolm was the Doll's manager briefly in '75 for the Red Patent Leather fiasco and the end of the band. By the time of the Pistols forming however, Johnny Thunders and Jerry Nolan had moved on to the excellent Heartbreakers, Johansen went on to somewhat successful solo carreer (often with Sylvain Sylvain in tow).
That being said, I guess the premise makes sense. Maybe Malcolm's plan was to turn the dolls into walking adverts for his boutique, the function the Sex Pistols eventually fulfilled. I just don't know.

[draconianguard]

The New York Dolls were not an assembled boy band. If anything, the inspiration behind the ramones would be the Dolls. Sure the Dolls wore make-up and outfits but they were quite real. And yes the Dolls were managed by Malcolm Mclaren in the end, in the heat of Thunders and Nolan's addiction... when a dollar earned was a dollar for dope, and it broke the band... fast. The Dolls pre-date the Ramones by about 3 years. The Dolls, while lumped in to "punk" actually represent a return to punchy '50's/60's songwriting. The same can be said of the Ramones. That is in fact how the first Ramones record was marketed. The Ramones have more in common with the Ronnettes than they do with anything traditionally considered "classic" punk.

As far as the original question of this thread, who was more influential, Pistols or Ramones... I hear echoes of Steve Jones in stuff all the time, especially in a lot of the swedish brand of good rock 'n roll, hell I hear a lot of jones in some metal even (new Darkthrone). And I hear Lydon's snot and snarl in most politically minded punk, even if they think they are the new Clash, they are just aping decades old awesome (lookin' at you Anti-Flag). And I hear some Ramones in every flavor of the month pop-punk conglomerate that bursts from the suburbs and lands on Hot Topic shelves. And even more from american bands that are just having fun (Riverdales, ******, Dwarves etc.). I think in both cases much of the influence that I hear these days are second/third/fourth hand. A band influenced by a band that was influenced by a band influenced by the Ramones/ Pistols.

Tie.

You misunderstood me. Didn't Malcolm assemble the Sex Pistols because he wanted The New York Dolls to come to England for him and they said no?

[Man of Action]

" I dont wanna be a pin-head no more"

[jwyblejr]

Anthony Bourdain is a huge Ramones fan. If it's good enough for him,it's good enough for me.

[The Bat]

Well...the Sex Pistols learned play listening to Ramones Albums...so I'm going to say the Ramones. But they really are two different styles of Punk...the Ramones are funny and fun...and the Pistols are "in Your Face"!

[4NDR01D]

One of my biggest regrets were missing the Ramones live, I've seen just about everybody, and a lot of shows were way before the bands "blew up" or got noticed, so how did I manage to miss a band that toured relentlessly for over 20 years? Toronto was known for being the Ramones "home away from home" and they always made sure to put on a great show there although I've realy never heard of a "bad" Ramones show.
If anybody out there is into reading I highly recommend the bok "Please Kill Me" by Legs McNeil, it chronicles the early years of the Stooges,MC5, New York Dolls,and Ramones. Crazy stories and a very interesting and easy read about punks founding fathers.

[Mikey]

Anybody remember that talk show Joey was on ?
It was either late 80's or early 90's........
Might have been Phil Donahue

Joey was one of the guests (I forgot what the subject was).
The audience was really horrible to him --- laughing at his every word.
(prim and proper middle-calls wives)

Joey sat the whole show out very cool and never raised his voice.
Now THAT is as cool as cool gets.

[Dave Mc]

I loves me some Ramones.

[Mikey]

Somebody mentioned "I Wanna Be Sedated" a while back on this thread ...

That song alone (musically) kills anything the Pistol's ever did, imo

Ramones, imo were Punk's Beatles.

Wish I could have met Joey-- at least for just one second.

[Zemo]

There's only so much you can do with 6 different chords.

Thank God nobody ever told Carlos Santana that.