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**Brazoo** · Oct 11, '13, 12:38 PM

I'll try to explain the Argument from Ignorance clearer with an example:

It's up to the DA to provide evidence against a suspect - a DA can't just say "it's reasonable to assume the suspect is guilty because there's no evidence to clear him."

The absence of evidence against an idea is not evidence for an idea.

--

Here's a link to the Wikipedia entry on this logical fallacy:

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

"[Argument from ignorance] asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa)...In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof."

Like in my example above, the DA attempted to shift the burden of proof to the plaintiff. In this case the burden of proof is on Bigfoot believers specifically because Bigfoot doubters can't search every square inch of the globe to prove Bigfoot doesn't exist. It's logically not possible to prove Bigfoot doesn't exist - but that doesn't mean he does. In a nutshell that's it.

**jwyblejr** · Oct 11, '13, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by enyawd72

^The Patterson film is absolutely genuine. If anyone has any doubt, all they have to do is compare it to a Hollywood Bigfoot costume...namely the one worn by Andre the Giant in SMDM a decade later. That was the best a Hollywood studio could come up with and it still has nowhere near the detail of the Patterson creature, where you can clearly see muscles moving beneath the hair. Aside from the face, which uses appliances, even the current Jack Links commercials suit isn't as realistic.

A guy in 1967 with no background in special effects, with lesser materials and no money made a suit better than anything Hollywood could produce then or now? Not a chance.

Another thing about the film if it's fake,why put boobs on the costume?

**johnmiic** · Oct 11, '13, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Brazoo

Sorry, I don't know anything about the NatGeo/Sarimento special.

I'm referring to the Matt Crowley casts that showed the dermal ridges might be artifacts of casting. I seem to recall that Meldrum investigated and admitted that they looked the same as the impressions in the supposedly real casts. I tried finding direct sources for this, but it seems like some of the original articles aren't online now. I'll try again later.

Can you please clarify, when you say Krantz had the FBI look at the casts are you referring to the investigations Chilcut did?

In the Krantz book, Krantz states he submitted Bigfoot casts to multiple FBI experts who concluded after examination the casts were not faked. Of the group 1 FBI guy refused to authenticate because the implication that these were of a real creature troubled him, (paraphrasing Krantz's statement), but did not think they were fakes. I don't have the book handy and don't think he mentioned them specifically by name. I will have to dig the book out.

Jimmy Chilcut appears in the NatGeo special as well but I don't think he is an FBI employee. I think he works for a local law enforcement agency in TX. Tho I was interested in what Chilcut refers to as "friction ridges". I had not heard that term used before.

**LadyZod** · Oct 11, '13, 12:53 PM

I find it sad when a subject like cryptozoology is made to look foolish by either stupid "reality" Bigfoot hunting shows or 2 bit con artists.

I can't help but go back to the discovery of the Okapi, Mountain Gorilla, Sumatra muntjac, Giant Manta Ray, the elephant shrew... new species of familiar animals are found everyday. But for every outstanding discovery, some jerk brings up the Montauk Monster or Chupacabra and tries to rope the whole study into the flim and the flam.

Whether you believe or not... it's about respect.

**Teemu** · Oct 11, '13, 1:03 PM

Best Bigfoot song...loved this song growing up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tSMh0V-9wI

**drquest** · Oct 11, '13, 1:31 PM

Originally posted by LadyZod

or Chupacabra

Did someone say Chupacabra?

I took this picture myself August 2012. There were actually two of these and they crossed the road in front of me and one jumped in the weeds and the other stood there looking at me while I took his picture.

Both looked almost exactly the same, same color, same size, both walked/ran the same. I have to assume they are hairless coyotes, but they were odd to see.

**sprytel** · Oct 11, '13, 1:36 PM

Originally posted by Brazoo

I know you're half-kidding, but I can't resist

I know...

Again, Bobcat was arguing for the possible existence of sasquatch, not giving conclusive evidence of its existence. And I think from that perspective, his points are valid. Many people view Bigfoot simply as a silly legend that couldn't possibly be true (some of those people have posted in this very thread). They think, "if there was something in that forest, we would have found it by now". Well... there are things that we know are in that forest-- big things like airplanes-- that we can't find. We are still discovering things in there. We have photographic evidence from these woods, and after 40 years, we still aren't sure if it is real or a hoax. So, who knows... sasquatch could be out there.

**Werewolf** · Oct 11, '13, 2:45 PM

I think the earlier Smallville comment was a good analogy.

I don't like football so I don't go into those threads. There are loads of shows I dislike so I don't go into those threads either. Besides, it's not like it's a topic on some wild conspiracy doomsday cult junk, it's freakin' Bigfoot. It's a pretty darn mild and harmless topic that shouldn't always turn into pile on.

On sort of a related note, Halloween is coming up and I thought it would be fun to have a thread on personal ghost stores. A fun light hearted thread for people to discuss to discuss "spooky" stuff that happened to them. Then I realized it would just turn into another pile on and wisely thought against it.

**Marvelmania** · Oct 11, '13, 3:03 PM

I don't know, that sounds fun to me. Personally I don't believe in ghosts but I do love me some ghost stories. Fun to hear. Just like last weekend in a small town near me, Jonesborough, TN, they had a story telling convention in town. Thousands showed up just to listen to some good old fashioned stories. Among them lots of ghost stories. It was a great time. Sorry to get off topic but if someone starts a thread like that I'd enjoy reading it.

**Brazoo** · Oct 11, '13, 3:26 PM

Originally posted by sprytel

I know...

Again, Bobcat was arguing for the possible existence of sasquatch, not giving conclusive evidence of its existence. And I think from that perspective, his points are valid. Many people view Bigfoot simply as a silly legend that couldn't possibly be true (some of those people have posted in this very thread). They think, "if there was something in that forest, we would have found it by now". Well... there are things that we know are in that forest-- big things like airplanes-- that we can't find. We are still discovering things in there. We have photographic evidence from these woods, and after 40 years, we still aren't sure if it is real or a hoax. So, who knows... sasquatch could be out there.

In principal I agree with him, it is possible - but I still don't see how he's making valid points, because you could imagine any phenomena/creature and make the same exact points to claim those things are possibly real too. That's the problem with logical fallacies - these lines of thinking don't get us closer to the truth.

I'm not in favor of throwing out the possibility of Bigfoot, if anything I want the research methods and lines of logic to improve so we can know more about these claims. I like Bigfoot, and hope he's real. I want Bigfoot research to be handled more seriously and rigorously - like LadyZod said.

I agree that people should be willing to understand that mysterious things are possible, but let's get real and place the blame on the correct issues: what's holding back Bigfoot research is the lack of strong evidence, the hoaxers and the pseudoscientists, not the skeptics.

**Brazoo** · Oct 11, '13, 3:28 PM

RE Bobcat: I watched "Shakes the Clown" a few months ago and it totally held up. What a great, dark and weird little movie.

**jwyblejr** · Oct 11, '13, 3:29 PM

Originally posted by sprytel

I know...

Again, Bobcat was arguing for the possible existence of sasquatch, not giving conclusive evidence of its existence. And I think from that perspective, his points are valid. Many people view Bigfoot simply as a silly legend that couldn't possibly be true (some of those people have posted in this very thread). They think, "if there was something in that forest, we would have found it by now". Well... there are things that we know are in that forest-- big things like airplanes-- that we can't find. We are still discovering things in there. We have photographic evidence from these woods, and after 40 years, we still aren't sure if it is real or a hoax. So, who knows... sasquatch could be out there.

We can't find Jimmy Hoffa. We can't find Amelia Earhart. That should tell people something there.

**Hector** · Oct 11, '13, 4:16 PM

I can't stand Bobcat Goldthwait, listening to him is like listening to nails on a chalkboard.

**Hector** · Oct 11, '13, 4:19 PM

Originally posted by drquest

Did someone say Chupacabra?

I took this picture myself August 2012. There were actually two of these and they crossed the road in front of me and one jumped in the weeds and the other stood there looking at me while I took his picture.

Both looked almost exactly the same, same color, same size, both walked/ran the same. I have to assume they are hairless coyotes, but they were odd to see.

That's a Mexican hairless dog called the Xoloitzcuintle.

**drquest** · Oct 11, '13, 4:35 PM

Originally posted by Hector

That's a Mexican hairless dog called the Xoloitzcuintle.

Well there were two of them and they were where they shouldn't be in a non residential type area.

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