Say what you want be we are screwed!!!

[Brazoo]

Ah... CRUD!!! Hector was right. I'm NOT done...


BRazoo, there are some incredibly thought-provoking, and articulately-expressed viewpoints expressed here that I feel the need to address. Unfortunately it will have to wait until tomorrow. Please stay tuned...

The crazy part is I'm not even close to finishing my rebuttal to your first post yet. The response above is only partway through your first couple of paragraphs.

Honestly, I think this is a really worthy discussion and you're a great person to have this discussion with - but the folks on these boards must already think we're crazy - plus I'm also really short on extra time this week.

If you want maybe can both walk away after your rebuttal and hopefully (somehow) we can both grab a beer sometime to hash this out?

Or - we could just kinda leave this as an ongoing thing - posting stuff into this thread once in a while. If that doesn't annoy others on her too much? Or maybe even just PM each other if you want? I'm up for either thing that works for you!

[LonnieFisher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq32mCQsQ2U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YAQn...eature=related

[Brazoo]

These videos start with the premiss that NWO exists (or New World Order - which is a modern catch-all for grand conspiracy theories). And I've already posted that I don't think grand conspiracy theories make sense and posted arguments for why I think that.

But right from the start of the first video I see the kind of silly misappropriation of quoting soooooo often found in these online videos. Which is why you should always check the sources these videos are siting. They're usually really easy to find online because (frankly) most of these videos aren't researched too deeply.

I know that Guardian article from the beginning of the first video. It was written by Jon Ronson who wrote "The Men Who Stare At Goats". It's meant to point out the incredibly stupid modalities that the US military has wasted research money on trying to develop new ways of fighting based on pseudo-scientific nonsense - the article isn't confirming that any of this stuff can work in any way.

Here's the passage the video is getting their info from:

Then there's the prophet hologram - "the projection of the image of an ancient god over an enemy capitol whose public communications have been seized and used against it in a massive psychological operation."

You can (and should) read the whole article here: Jon Ronson on US military 'non-lethal technologies' | World news | The Guardian

And you should also read "The Men Who Stare At Goats" because it's awesome! (Terrible movie though).

Here's another passage from that same article to give you more insight into the fact that these are not top secret ideas the government is hiding anymore - because they're proven no to work:

Commentators have suggested that the Pentagon must be embarrassed that these crazy endeavours have come to light, but I suspect they are pleased: it makes human-rights abuses seem amusingly hare-brained as opposed to chilling.

Again - this article isn't about top secret classified technologies at all - quite the contrary - this stuff was declassified and came to light because the military is basically throwing these experiments in the trash can.

[Brazoo]

Next the video sites a research paper released by the Army Research Laboratory - which is from 1998 and easily found online my first try in a google search. (Again, the research these videos do always seems much more impressive than it actually is.)

Here's the full document.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...c=GetTRDoc.pdf

First off, this paper is from 1998. Hardly cutting edge. Secondly it's published online. hardly top secret.

[Brazoo]

Next we see a clip from a news report. KSLA12 News (I think?). This clip is all over the web from when the contrail / chemtrail conspiracy theory was big a few years ago I think, but I can't find a date.

So a dude who's suspicious of contrails gets a local news station to analyze a jar full ofle of water and grit that HE gave them, claiming that it was from residue that fell from contrails (or chemtrails as the conspiracy people call them). Hardly a scientific approach - to do this properly they needed someone else to collect the samples - but okay.

The news program's lab finds Barium in the sample. According to the Army Research Lab paper barium is a chemical required for the reflective surface of 3-D holographs, so this video speculates that the "chemtrails" are for producing these holographs.

First of all the Army Research Lab paper talks about strontium barium niobate - and the lab only said they found barium. On the lab report they show we don't see those other two chemicals.

Okay - but, let's say this is exactly what the "chemtrails" are for. Where are the 3-D holographs then? These guys have made claims about "chemtrails" for years now, we should see something by now - no?

Barium - is used in a whole bunch of things, like in welding, florescent lights and fireworks. So maybe buddy got the sample from a place in the field people were shooting off fire works. Who knows? I can't find any follow up to this article and it seems to be from years ago. It seems that the only people who care about this report are the ones who already suspected contrails in the first place anyway.

At this point I'd also like to point out that grand conspiracy theorists LOVE to claim that the media is actively in the on big cover-up, but anytime the media releases something they agree with they're only too happy to use the information and parade it around all over the place. To me this is just another of many contradictions in the logic and methods of grand conspiracy theorists.

[Brazoo]

Next they talk about an article discussing how the Air Force was looking into holographic technology in 1996. I have no problem with this - I assume that would be very useful technology for the Air Force - but I can probably come up with a thousand reasons they'd want that technology aside from creating images of the antichrist.

Same goes for LRAD, which is hardly secret technology and is discussed in the mainstream press.
Long Range Acoustic Device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why is the fanciful "antichrist" illusion and New World Order take over more compelling than the idea that these technologies might be really effective in totally normal combat situations? I don't get the extra suspicion and the need to develop more imaginative theories. The military is saying "here's what we're working on, and why we're doing it" and it totally makes sense.


I can't watch part 2 now. I got WAY too carried away with part one, but I look forward to discussing these points further.

[Sandman9580]

While I believe that intellectual extraterrestrials do exist throughout the universe...they are simply not here on Earth...our distances are just too vast...even light speed is slow-motion in terms of interstellar travel.

We are also not that important...but we like to think so.

In reality...even if they knew of our existence...aliens don't give a damn about us...we are that insignificant....and that includes our puny sun...compare that to VY Canis Majoris for a reality check...lol.

Ah...the vanity of man...

I totally agree. It is more like we care more about finding out about them and their technology then they do us. From all of the stories that I have heard anyway they are supposedly way more advanced then we are so as you stated why would they even give a crap about us.

earthlings = mosquito droppings

I've never understood this perspective. By what metric are we "not important"?

As a measure of complexity, human beings, and the culture we collectively create, are one of the most dynamic systems in the known universe. (And no arrogance or vanity are required to make that observation.) Also, where does this assumption come from that vastly superior intelligence should somehow lead to deadened curiosity and apathy? The opposite is true about 100% of the time.

The idea that aliens wouldn't be interested in us is bizarre.

[darklord1967]

I've never understood this perspective. By what metric are we "not important"?

As a measure of complexity, human beings, and the culture we collectively create, are one of the most dynamic systems in the known universe. (And no arrogance or vanity are required to make that observation.) Also, where does this assumption come from that vastly superior intelligence should somehow lead to deadened curiosity and apathy? The opposite is true about 100% of the time.

The idea that aliens wouldn't be interested in us is bizarre.

Couldn't have said it better myself. And as overly verbosely as I tried to, I didn't say it better.

[jwyblejr]

But why are they only interested in our butts? Why are they always sticking probes up there? And why chop up our cattle? What did those poor cows do to them?

[kingdom warrior]

But why are they only interested in our butts? Why are they always sticking probes up there? And why chop up our cattle? What did those poor cows do to them?

Cow loving Alien molesters is what they are.....

[Joe90]

The first I ever heard of 2012 was the documentary The Outer Space Connection narrated by Rod Serling. The premise was that Aliens who founded civilization here on Earth would return then. Of course it was taking huge license with the events that were supposed to occur coinciding with that date in the Mayan Long Count Calendar predicting the Galactic Alignment.

There has been conjecture that there will be increased sunspots, tectonic activity, tidal surges, etc, etc, etc... Lately Nostradamus' name has been associated with it which is even more outlandish...

Check out the dates of when the Mayans believed that the Galactic Alignment was supposed to occur; check out what the positions of all the "players" in this alignment should be at that time. Some astronomers say that the alignment has already occurred and that the Mayans, bless their mathematical souls, were mistaken.

There's just too much conflicting information from every angle -- some of it put forth rationally and convincingly -- for me to be able to take much of it in any way but metaphorically. Basically, I am convinced that 2012 (whether or not the Cosmos has lined up on that date) is to be the Mayan equivalent of the (Hellenic/Babylonian) Western Astrology's Age of Aquarius.

[LonnieFisher]

I think some people live in a very small limited reality. The cosmos are grander than you or I could imagine. There are more levels to reality than can be found by our limited senses. We can only perceive some of the spectrum of light and sound. There is more around us than we can sense. The universe isn't full of empty space. What we think is empty space is actually something.

[LonnieFisher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pexxM3Uw80

[Joe90]

I think some people live in a very small limited reality. The cosmos are grander than you or I could imagine. There are more levels to reality than can be found by our limited senses. We can only perceive some of the spectrum of light and sound. There is more around us than we can sense. The universe isn't full of empty space. What we think is empty space is actually something.

I'm not sure what your religious beliefs are but you are sounding suspiciously like a first century Gnostic Christian.

I'd have to agree with you, that's why I find it a stretch when people claim to have all the answers.

[Tothiro]

Forgive me if I'm asking the noob question - but wasn't the entire hubub around 2012 based on a false impression of the Mayan time keeping system to begin with? IE that their calendar system ended at that time - so the world must end, when in reality their system was just cyclical and that's just one of many recycle points?