Led Zep Re-union talk again- Music!!

[kingcarm]

Zeps days will never be over and done with! EVER

I agree to that.

[draconianguard]

You'd be surprised how many bands "steal" or subconsciously borrow ideas from other musicians. It's apart of being a musician. It happens a lot, most of the time not intentionally.

To damn Led Zeppelin for cashing in on their roots and bringing it to live through their music is not right. There are far more worse acts of plagiarism out there.

Led Zeppelin are Rock gods and will go down as that. Simple.

Theres a difference between being heavily influenced and blatant theft. The entire song Dazed And Confused was stolen-not just parts. Sure other bands have borrowed, but Zep took it to a new level. They are smart business men though. I heard someone call them the most successful cover band of all time and thought that was hilarious. Any band that steals entire songs and takes credit, I really can't respect them as artists.

http://www.warr.org/zep.html

[Zemo]

Theres a difference between being heavily influenced and blatant theft. The entire song Dazed And Confused was stolen-not just parts. Sure other bands have borrowed, but Zep took it to a new level. They are smart business men though. I heard someone call them the most successful cover band of all time and thought that was hilarious. Any band that steals entire songs and takes credit, I really can't respect them as artists.

Hmm, Let me suggest you do the following.
1) Power on your sound system.
2) Insert Houses of the Holy
3) Turn volume to #8
4) Play track 8 (Ocean)
5) Bow before your Master

[draconianguard]

Hmm, Let me suggest you do the following.
1) Power on your sound system.
2) Insert Houses of the Holy
3) Turn volume to #8
4) Play track 8 (Ocean)
5) Bow before your Master

Thanks for your suggestion, but I would rather:
1) Power on your sound system.
2) Insert Black Sabbath
3) Turn volume to #8
4) Play track 1 (Black Sabbath)
5) Bow before the true Masters

[Zemo]

Thanks for your suggestion, but I would rather:
1) Power on your sound system.
2) Insert Black Sabbath
3) Turn volume to #8
4) Play track 1 (Black Sabbath)
5) Bow before the true Masters

I did just that and bowed also. My wife didn't have a clue what the hell was going on!

[Merlyn1976]

Thanks for your suggestion, but I would rather:
1) Power on your sound system.
2) Insert Black Sabbath
3) Turn volume to #8
4) Play track 1 (Black Sabbath)
5) Bow before the true Masters

Agreed...but I prefer track 2

I like Zeppelin and all don't get me wrong....

[Vortigern99]

Theres a difference between being heavily influenced and blatant theft. The entire song Dazed And Confused was stolen-not just parts. Sure other bands have borrowed, but Zep took it to a new level. They are smart business men though. I heard someone call them the most successful cover band of all time and thought that was hilarious. Any band that steals entire songs and takes credit, I really can't respect them as artists.

Dazed and Confused was one song on their first album -- a blues-based track on a record full of blues-based hard rock, at a time when nearly every rock band was borrowing songs, lyrics, melodies and riffs from the old blues masters and from each other. Cream, Fleetwood Mac, Zep, and other now-forgotten bands like Vanilla Fudge were all following this pattern.

Zep's later records, staring with III in 1970 and continuing through the end of their career in 1980 were all highly original and sonically trend-setting. They blended together blues, British and American folk, East Indian music and hard rock into an inarguably influential style. They were also unbelievably talented live musicians, which in part helped to create the aura of power and alchemical magic that remains around them to this day.

[megoat]

Dazed and Confused was one song on their first album -- a blues-based track on a record full of blues-based hard rock, at a time when nearly every rock band was borrowing songs, lyrics, melodies and riffs from the old blues masters and from each other. Cream, Fleetwood Mac, Zep, and other now-forgotten bands like Vanilla Fudge were all following this pattern.

I don't think you understand. Zeppelin stole the song from Jake Holmes, a contemporary songwriter from Zeppelin's day--he was not an "old blues master" but a fine late 60's songwriter. They didn't just "borrow" some riffs or ideas--they took the whole song.

Dazed and Confused: The Incredibly Strange Saga of Jake Holmes

This is not the only example of Zep's outright theft.....

This is an age old criticism of Zeppelin that will plague them forever.

[Cosmicman]

Here is the only person anyone should bow to as far as I am concerned...



I am currently listening to Paul Stanley's new CD "LIVE TO WIN" over and over.

KISS is the greatest band in the world as far as I am concerned! The rest are just imitators!!

[Vortigern99]

From the link supplied by megoat (and pls. see my comments, below):

WS: Did you know that The Yardbirds had incorporated "Dazed And Confused" into their repertoire when they returned to New York City the next spring?

JH: (laughs) I had no idea. I had no idea.

WS: When did you find out that Zeppelin did it?

JH: When the album came out! And then, stupidly, I never followed up on it. In the early 1980's, I did write them a letter and I said basically "I understand it's a collaborative effort, but I think you should give me some credit at least and some remunity." But they never contacted me.

WS: Well, The Yardbirds just came out with a CD of archival material (ed. note: Cumular Limit) and they included a version of your song that they did on French t.v. in 1968. And it's credited properly! It reads "Jake Holmes; arranged by The Yardbirds."

JH: (laughs) God! Really! Get out of town!

WS: I just interviewed two of The Yardbirds for another piece and they don't split hairs at all. They say the song is definitely yours.

JH: (laughs in disbelief)

WS: Do you want to hear one more thing?

JH: (laughs) I'm starting to get weird here. But yes!

WS: The Yardbirds are back together and they play your song!

JH: (laughs hysterically) Well, that's nice to hear.

WS: Further, there's a compilation out right now that has "Leaves Never Break" on it. It's called Growing Slowly Insane. Actually, WFMU in New Jersey plays that song and "Dazed And Confused" quite a bit.

Here, then, is the chronology that makes you object to Zep's entire repertoire and causes you to deny their skill and influence:

The Yardbirds, of whom Page was a member, liked the song and began to play it live. Page, after leaving the Yardbirds shortly thereafter, introduced the song -- perhaps not even remembering it belonged to someone else -- to the members of Zeppelin, none of whom had been members of the Yardbirds and so could not have known the song's origins. Holmes did not contact the band till the 80s, after Bonham had died and the band had broken up. Even then, he only sent them one letter, and never pursued the matter further.

Those heinous *******s!!!!

[megoat]

Here, then, is the chronology that makes you object to Zep's entire repertoire and causes you to deny their skill and influence:

The Yardbirds, of whom Page was a member, liked the song and began to play it live. Page, after leaving the Yardbirds shortly thereafter, introduced the song -- perhaps not even remembering it belonged to someone else -- to the members of Zeppelin, none of whom had been members of the Yardbirds and so could not have known the song's origins. Holmes did not contact the band till the 80s, after Bonham had died and the band had broken up. Even then, he only sent them one letter, and never pursued the matter further.

Those heinous *******s!!!!

First off, where in my post did i "deny their skill and influence"? Of course Zep was a highly influential band that inspired a legion of rockers to pick up guitars....I would never be so foolish as to deny their influence. I was just responding to your tired argument of "everyone borrowed from the blues" that everyone makes when it comes to zep's thievery.

Secondly, I don't get your point. Because Page couldn't remember where the song came from or that Holmes never really pursued the matter much does not erase the fact that the song was STOLEN.

[Wee67]

WOW! I just listened to Holmes' version of Dazed and Confused and, yes, it did more than "inspire" Page. BTW, its a pretty cool song. I'd love to hear more of Holmes' stuff. I will continue to love Zep, but this really gives me some insight to the stories I've heard over the years.

[Vortigern99]

Sorry, megoat. I confused you with draconianguard. Yet my own assertion about musicians in the late 60s borrowing from each other and from previous artists does not derive from some kind of group consensus, but from my own research into and understanding of the period. To clarify my point, if Holmes doesn't much care, why should anyone? Okay, they -- or specifically, Jimmy Page, since the other members of the band couldn't have known where the song came from -- used Holmes' song and neglected to give him credit. For this they should be villainized and discredited? Or if not that, then what, exactly?

[megoat]

Sorry, megoat. I confused you with draconianguard. Yet my own assertion about musicians in the late 60s borrowing from each other and from previous artists does not derive from some kind of group consensus, but from my own research into and understanding of the period. To clarify my point, if Holmes doesn't much care, why should anyone? Okay, they -- or specifically, Jimmy Page, since the other members of the band couldn't have known where the song came from -- used Holmes' song and neglected to give him credit. For this they should be villainized and discredited? Or if not that, then what, exactly?

But again, Holmes' not caring doesn't erase the fact that the song was stolen.


It is true, many musicians from the 60's were influenced by the "roots" of American music--blues, folk, hillbilly. I guess the main difference 'tween Zep and other artists that "borrowed" ideas, is that in Zep's case they took things like WHOLE songs and swiped complete passages of lyrics and lifted entire guitar parts WITHOUT GIVING CREDIT. Willie Dixon actually sued the band and settled out of court. It is/has been a stain on their legacy for years. This is not new information.

But that said, anyone with ears and a sense of historical context should also be able to understand Zeppelins' enormous contribution to all things ROCK. I mean they had a HUGE impact, and they even did come up with their own original songs! Good ones too!

I guess I just take issue with a lot of the Zep apologists who try to explain away the undeniable fact that many of Zeppelin's biggest songs were either completely stolen (Dazed) or partly stolen (Whole Lotta Love, Stairway to Heaven)..........

[Vortigern99]

I pretty much agree with all of that. I've read about the Dixon lawsuit ('You Shook Me' and 'I Can't Quit You' were his compositions, initially uncredited on Zep I). And it appears to be beyond question that Holmes is the author of 'Dazed & Confused'. But with an oeuvre of 60+ wholly original recordings, I cannot find fault with Zep for recording other people's songs during the very early ('68-'69) stages of their career.

Regarding Holmes, none of us knows the whole story. Perhaps Page, after playing the song so many times live with the Yardbirds -- and turning it from a drumless folk song into a blues-based, mainly instrumental jam -- he merely forgot that Holmes was the song's author. On the other hand, maybe he did remember, and deliberately chose to exclude Holmes from the credits out of spite, drug-addled confusion, or pure evil. We simply do not know his reasons, if there are any. Sometimes people make mistakes, and since Holmes seems to be okay with the issue, I for one am not losing any sleep over it. If Holmes was homeless and penniless as a result of Page's oversight, I might be angry with Page, and this might affect my enjoyment of the band to a certain degree -- but that does not appear to be the case.