I with e2Chris... I feel guilty that this doesn't excite me. maybe the failure of so many dc films in a row has jaded me. I just wish that Bruce Timm was in charge of Dc's film branch then maybe a film that was both edge and could resonate to the older fans and general public would be made. As it is I am only hoping it won't be terrible
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I think it's the over-emphasis on realism, and the lack of humor that has made the DC films much less palatable than the Marvel movies. I honestly don't know how they are going to cram an Amazon with a magic lasso and bullet-deflecting bracelets into a universe that is too concerned with making everything "real". The realism worked for Nolan's Batman films, arguably, although I do think even they could have used a light touch here and there. I enjoyed Snyder's Man of Steel, but more as an alternate take since the joyous Donner/Reeve film had already been done, and it's far-too-introspective sequel, Superman Returns, ultimately failed to click with audiences.
Oddly enough, I'm hearing more and more folks who didn't like MOS, so it seems like DC/WB is almost back in the same spot they were in 2006/2007 when it became questionable whether Singer would be allowed to make a sequel. It seems MOS has divided fans just as much if not more, although MOS did ear WB more money.
ChrisComment
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First, no offence taken. I'm all for upfront, respectable debate and discussion.
Hedrap - it might be hype but it feels true. In Marvel movies there seems to be a reverence to the source material that you didn't see in both Superman movies and the Green Lantern flick. Kevin Feige, the President of Marvel Studios was (in a strange coincidence to Geoff Johns) an intern for Lauren Shuler Donner. Donner made Feige an associate producer on the X-Men flicks due to his " encyclopaedic knowledge of the Marvel Universe". Marvel with a fan at the helm steers its heroes to the screen So the head of Marvel Studios is indeed an Über-fan. I'm willing to bet the head of WB's movie division couldn't even tell you who Jason Todd is let alone Lori Lemaris.
Staroid - you are absolutely right that Geoff Johns was an assistant to Richard Donner but his involvement in DC began in 1997 and his list of successful credits in comics is huge. Look what he did with the Justice Soceity of America and that title. His "rebirths" of Green Lantern and Flash. The New 52 Aquaman. You gotta admit that he has shown a great deal of respect for the DC characters that he's had creative control of. I would argue he is WAY more qualified to lead the publishing side of DC over Dan Didio.
IMHO everything that is wrong with the New 52 is Dan saying "why the heck not, who cares?" and then giving it to Jim Lee to Wildstormify and then dropping this pile of dung into Editor's hands that are either power mad or are not given enough leeway to let creators create. I am so worried that the experiment of the New 52 and it's sales spike will encourage Dan to do a similar reboot (April 2015?) every few years to keep things "fresh".
As I said, I do hope I am proven horribly wrong and the new DC movies work out better than Man of Steel or Green Lantern.
- MartyLast edited by ubermanx; Apr 28, '14, 2:52 PM.Comment
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^hedrap, I wrote Singer when I meant to write Snyder. Sorry for the mistake. I wasn't referring to Superman Returns, just MOS.
In a previous job at Warners, Tsujihara oversaw DC with former publisher Paul Levitz reporting to him. Levitz has vouched for Tsujihara as a person who knows and respects the characters. I take Levitiz's word on that.
There is no doubt Legendary is a fine production Company and Nolan's work speaks for itself; however, I'm not sure Nolanizing Superman was ultimately the way to go. Batman is all about intensity and mystery where Superman is about wish fulfillment, balanced by need for restraint of power. Nolan, Goyer, Singer made darker choices with MOS, focusing on the protectiveness of the Kent's rather than wholesomeness of the the character's upbringing. Both have been aspects of the Superman canon, but the wholesomeness of the Kent's upbringing has been the focus of far more stories and I think what the older geek audience expected.
All the destruction and the killing of Zod were bold choices. Showing a novice hero who doesn't know how to make all the right moves was a different way to go at a character. But a valid one when one of the main criticisms of the character is that he's too perfect. Had Snyder been a bit more judicious with the destruction and found a way to inject more fun in the story, I think it might have played better. But overkill is Snyder's forte.
Hopefully the combination of the two characters in the follow-up will force the production to contrast the two characters in a way that allows both's strength to shine without subserving one to the other like in Miller's Dark Knight. Maybe then Superman will seem more like the Superman ardent fans expect.
As for Ratner, I've not seen his direct involvement with the project being reported anywhere. I know he is the minority partner in the company bankrolling WB's production slate, so if he wants to be involved, they'll have to listen.
But with that much power, why would Ratner care what the internet thinks about him directing a DC film? Yeah, he's a lowest common denominator type of director, but if you have the clout, you have the clout.
I know there was a critical backlash to X-men 3, but isn't it the highest grossing of the x-men films. That's not a bad thing to a studio.
I get the Affleck choice for Batman, and I think it'll work depending on the script, but Gadot? Yeah, I don't get that, and it is contrary to Snyder's history of choosing strong female leads.
As for the too many cooks in the kitchen, that may be very true, and if it is, then it may be a big problem. It seemed like an issue with the GL film.
I know there has to be some embarrassment at Warner's in the light of Marvel's success, but anyone who thinks any two films will catch them up with Marvel is just crazy. Warner's just needs to worry about honoring the the core of the characters and telling a good story, not catching Marvel. That race is over.
But, That doesn't mean the JLA film is going to be a failure or even bad. I would argue JLA ranks behind Batman and ahead of Superman as DC second strongest brand. Getting a JLA franchise out there has to be the top goal whether the other JLA characters ever get solo films or not.
While I want to see a Flash movie, I'm not so sure the character is strong enough to support a film. The TV series route may have been the smart move for that character if it makes it to series.
As for the New52, I think you're making an assumption that Lee is the lesser force in the co-publisher set-up, and I'm not so sure that's true. When the two sit together and talk In public, Diddio shows deference to Lee.
For a decade Diddio has operated a throw it against the wall to see if it sticks approach to launching and relaunching characters and series, and he wanted to restart DC continuity since he got the job, but I didn't really have a problem with the relaunch but more so the execution of it, which from a design standpoint was Lee's baby. And the design of the characters in the new52 is my biggest problem with DC right now.
To me the issues with editorial and contracted talent fall primarily on Bob Harras' plate. I was disappointed to read that he would be making the move to Burbank.
Of course what I don't like about the New52 may be very different than what you don't like about it.Last edited by madmarva; Apr 28, '14, 4:13 PM.Comment
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I'm pretty sure most of us here are just waiting for WB to mess this up. NOTHING will come out after B vs. S if it underperforms. ALL the pressure in the world and from that studio stem from this film. They have an opportunity to do three things, save face with the comic faithful ( as if they care), build the studio's film foundation for the next decade, and ...make lots of cash. I predict only one of the three, just not sure which at this time. I have zero faith in Warners to get this done properly. I hope to be proven very wrong, but they have a track record of not living up to potential.I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she dumped me before we met.
If anyone here believes in psychokinesis, please raise my hand.Comment
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For many many years WB has never understood the value of DC. All they saw were "those comic book guys". When it came time to write a new Superman movie did they even talk with the guys that have been writing Superman for decades? Apparently not. And when they made yet another Superman movie did they learn for that mistake? Nope.
Marvel movies (not including Spider-Man and X-Men of course) are done BY Marvel. The same guys that guild these characters each and every month are the same fellows guiding the movies. They hire fans of the source material to write and direct. There is a real sense of "these are our characters and lets give them the love they deserve. Lets make the movie WE want to see." And it shows. Sure, not every flick has been a runaway success but the audience is responding to that love and care.
Warner Bros is looking at the huge box office of the Marvel movies and are now telling the movie division to raid the comic division for profit. The WB movie guys don't get the characters. Man of Steel proved that. Superman in Man of Steel is NOT the same big blue boy scout that I have read all my life. He's the Michael Bay-ified Superman. What the WB movie guys think we want to see. Unfortunately it was successful. So now WB believes they have the winning formula and are going to apply it to the rest of DC. And it will bomb. There will be more stinkers than winners.
DC is equally as dysfunctional as the rest of WB. We have a TV and Movie guy (Dan Didio) in charge of publishing and a comic book guy (Geoff Johns) in charge of TV and Movie relations. ***!!! This is how the New 52 happened (or as I like to say the Wildstormification of DC.) Look at the love and passion Joe Quesada put into Marvel when he was EIC. From bankrupt to the number #1 comic publisher.
I'm ranting ... sorry. As a lifelong DC guy I am seeing my pulllist go from 83% DC Comics to 23% and it's giving me heartache. Nothing in this Justice League movie announcement if alleviating that. I am hoping to be proven wrong and that these upcoming DC movies will be on par with Marvel's offerings.
- Marty
By the way, wouldn't a Kingdom Come movie be great! I love that interpretation of Superman. I think Alex Ross gets it right.Comment
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Had Snyder been a bit more judicious with the destruction and found a way to inject more fun in the story, I think it might have played better. But overkill is Snyder's forte.
Hopefully the combination of the two characters in the follow-up will force the production to contrast the two characters in a way that allows both's strength to shine without subserving one to the other like in Miller's Dark Knight. Maybe then Superman will seem more like the Superman ardent fans expect.
As for Ratner, I've not seen his direct involvement with the project being reported anywhere. I know he is the minority partner in the company bankrolling WB's production slate, so if he wants to be involved, they'll have to listen.
But with that much power, why would Ratner care what the internet thinks about him directing a DC film? Yeah, he's a lowest common denominator type of director, but if you have the clout, you have the clout.
I know there was a critical backlash to X-men 3, but isn't it the highest grossing of the x-men films. That's not a bad thing to a studio.
I get the Affleck choice for Batman, and I think it'll work depending on the script, but Gadot? Yeah, I don't get that, and it is contrary to Snyder's history of choosing strong female leads.
As for the too many cooks in the kitchen, that may be very true, and if it is, then it may be a big problem. It seemed like an issue with the GL film.
I know there has to be some embarrassment at Warner's in the light of Marvel's success, but anyone who thinks any two films will catch them up with Marvel is just crazy. Warner's just needs to worry about honoring the the core of the characters and telling a good story, not catching Marvel. That race is over.
But, That doesn't mean the JLA film is going to be a failure or even bad. I would argue JLA ranks behind Batman and ahead of Superman as DC second strongest brand. Getting a JLA franchise out there has to be the top goal whether the other JLA characters ever get solo films or not.
While I want to see a Flash movie, I'm not so sure the character is strong enough to support a film. The TV series route may have been the smart move for that character if it makes it to series.
This is what I mean by saying Robinov/Tull had a better grasp on things. The new group is hedging their bet based on the risk factors. That's insane. Marvel got Scarlett after Swank passed on Widow. They didn't grab some backup from Twilight for a character that is/was not anywhere near as significant as WW. Feige understands the need to project confidence and how it pays off. WB does not.
As for the New52, I think you're making an assumption that Lee is the lesser force in the co-publisher set-up, and I'm not so sure that's true. When the two sit together and talk In public, Diddio shows deference to Lee.
For a decade Diddio has operated a throw it against the wall to see if it sticks approach to launching and relaunching characters and series, and he wanted to restart DC continuity since he got the job, but I didn't really have a problem with the relaunch but more so the execution of it, which from a design standpoint was Lee's baby. And the design of the characters in the new52 is my biggest problem with DC right now.
To me the issues with editorial and contracted talent fall primarily on Bob Harras' plate. I was disappointed to read that he would be making the move to Burbank.
Of course what I don't like about the New52 may be very different than what you don't like about it.
Nu52 execution has been a mess and it's a textbook case of too many cooks. I think the upcoming multiversity, or whatever they're calling it, is prime example. The entire point of Nu52 was too streamline, and just like the Ultimates stuff, creative can't see the forest for the trees in their way. When they intro'd Earth 2, it was SMDH time. The upcoming Marvel arcs are just as bad.Comment
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First, no offence taken. I'm all for upfront, respectable debate and discussion.
Hedrap - it might be hype but it feels true. In Marvel movies there seems to be a reverence to the source material that you didn't see in both Superman movies and the Green Lantern flick. Kevin Feige, the President of Marvel Studios was (in a strange coincidence to Geoff Johns) an intern for Lauren Shuler Donner. Donner made Feige an associate producer on the X-Men flicks due to his " encyclopaedic knowledge of the Marvel Universe". Marvel with a fan at the helm steers its heroes to the screen So the head of Marvel Studios is indeed an Über-fan. I'm willing to bet the head of WB's movie division couldn't even tell you who Jason Todd is let alone Lori Lemaris.Comment
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First, no offence taken. I'm all for upfront, respectable debate and discussion.
Hedrap - it might be hype but it feels true. In Marvel movies there seems to be a reverence to the source material that you didn't see in both Superman movies and the Green Lantern flick. Kevin Feige, the President of Marvel Studios was (in a strange coincidence to Geoff Johns) an intern for Lauren Shuler Donner. Donner made Feige an associate producer on the X-Men flicks due to his " encyclopaedic knowledge of the Marvel Universe". Marvel with a fan at the helm steers its heroes to the screen So the head of Marvel Studios is indeed an Über-fan. I'm willing to bet the head of WB's movie division couldn't even tell you who Jason Todd is let alone Lori Lemaris.
Staroid - you are absolutely right that Geoff Johns was an assistant to Richard Donner but his involvement in DC began in 1997 and his list of successful credits in comics is huge. Look what he did with the Justice Soceity of America and that title. His "rebirths" of Green Lantern and Flash. The New 52 Aquaman. You gotta admit that he has shown a great deal of respect for the DC characters that he's had creative control of. I would argue he is WAY more qualified to lead the publishing side of DC over Dan Didio.
IMHO everything that is wrong with the New 52 is Dan saying "why the heck not, who cares?" and then giving it to Jim Lee to Wildstormify and then dropping this pile of dung into Editor's hands that are either power mad or are not given enough leeway to let creators create. I am so worried that the experiment of the New 52 and it's sales spike will encourage Dan to do a similar reboot (April 2015?) every few years to keep things "fresh".
As I said, I do hope I am proven horribly wrong and the new DC movies work out better than Man of Steel or Green Lantern.
- Marty). Anyhow, 52 seems to be a mess and most of the animated work is not acknowledging it. I hope it turns out well in the end.
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First, no offence taken. I'm all for upfront, respectable debate and discussion.
Hedrap - it might be hype but it feels true. In Marvel movies there seems to be a reverence to the source material that you didn't see in both Superman movies and the Green Lantern flick. Kevin Feige, the President of Marvel Studios was (in a strange coincidence to Geoff Johns) an intern for Lauren Shuler Donner. Donner made Feige an associate producer on the X-Men flicks due to his " encyclopaedic knowledge of the Marvel Universe". Marvel with a fan at the helm steers its heroes to the screen So the head of Marvel Studios is indeed an Über-fan. I'm willing to bet the head of WB's movie division couldn't even tell you who Jason Todd is let alone Lori Lemaris.
Feige identifies himself as a Marvel comic fan, but he’s a recent convert. Growing up in Westfield, N.J., he was obsessed with movies such as the Star Wars trilogy, the Indiana Jones and Star Trek franchises, Back to the Future, and the first RoboCop. When he read that George Lucas had studied film at the University of Southern California, Feige decided to do the same. After graduating, he worked on three movies for producer Lauren Shuler Donner. The first was Volcano, in which lava bubbles up from the La Brea Tar Pits and threatens Los Angeles. “It was my first movie, and we were blowing things up,” he says. The second was You’ve Got Mail. He taught Meg Ryan how to use America Online.
The third movie was 2000’s X-Men, which director Bryan Singer was making for Fox. To better understand the genre, Feige immersed himself in Marvel comics. “I did a much deeper dive than I ever had before,” he says.Comment
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