Anyone like the new DC

[Earth 2 Chris]

I could get past the costume redesigns, but the overall tone of the line just leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. The dismemberment, torture and violence borders on sadism to me. I just think these creators have taken the characters to places they should have never been taken. As I grow older I find myself wincing more and more at such exploitative stuff. I know to some this means I've outgrown super heroes. But I don't think so. I still enjoy intelligently written, all-ages accessible super heroes. It is possible.

I've said it before, but the DC of today would never publish "Who is Donna Troy?" or "Runaways" from NTT. The runaways of that particular story would be captured, raped and tortured and the heroes would find them only too late, no doubt.

I blame the tonal shift at DC mostly on Brad Meltzer. His reputation made what he did to the Bronze Age JLA palatable. I won't say that Identity Crisis doesn't have it's merits. It has strong character moments for sure. But it was the first instance where DC as a company really caved to a creator's whims in telling a story, without thinking of the repercussions or damage done to the characters as a result of the story. In many ways it was The Dark Knight and Watchmen of it's day, with Didio and many creators scrambling to jump in the dirty end of the pool with Meltzer and muck the characters up with heightened violence and immature treatment of matures subjects such as rape. After all of this, it was easy for Didio, Lee and Johns to finally lay the old DCU to rest, as it's poor mangled corpse had been readily defiled in the years between ID Crisis and Flashpoint.

Chris

[madmarva]

Chris, you have a valid point about the violence. As much as I enjoy Much of Johns' work he does have a tendency to go for the gross-out or the violent shock that I would agree is unnecessary. And his protoges have followed suit. The Joker's face being skinned and the heads and limbs being popped off characters, Ultra Man melting the Monocle in the most in Forever Evil 1. He definitely has a fascination with death and the darker aspects of the villains. John's isn't as sadistic as Millar or Ellis, but their foulest material generally isn't with characters that are generally considered children's characters.

Johns does or has done a lot of nice character work, but I do think the guy is being spread thin, writing so much along with other duties he has. Right now Johns is the standard at DC and Snyder and Lemire (who both have horror backgrounds) are next. Greg Pac seems to be getting more assignments and from hos work at Marvel, he seems to have a lighter touch. I liked the first issue of his Superman/Batman book.

I think there is a place for stronger material in super hero comics, but when it becomes the default or squeezes other types of stories off the stands, it's disappointing.

[Earth 2 Chris]

John's isn't as sadistic as Millar or Ellis, but their foulest material generally isn't with characters that are generally considered children's characters.

I think Johns is more shocking because he DOES get that Silver/Bronze Age sense of wonder and he can bring it into modern stories like few others. Something of a later-day Mark Waid. BUT, he often-times throws in the gore and nastiness, which makes it seem all the more icky to me. He also goes too far into humanzing the villains for my tastes. Every villain is the hero of their own story, but Johns tries too hard to make them the heroes of ALL stories, beginning with Black Adam, who got thoroughly sick of across nearly all of DC's line.

I think there is a place for stronger material in super hero comics, but when it becomes the default or squeezes other types of stories off the stands, it's disappointing.

I agree. But I can't honestly say I'd hand ANY of the New 52 books to my 11-year old without looking at it first. And he's seen nearly every comic movie out there. The standard super-hero comic material has really moved into near R-rated territory, to my mind.

Chris

[madmarva]

Yeah, I've got a big batch of comics from recent years that I can't sell. I thought about giving them to the youth group at my church or a children's home, but I thought better of that.

I'd really like for DC to put out a line of all ages books with its super heroes and support it with solid creators and marketing, and see how the line would sell.

[Earth 2 Chris]

^Yes! Why not put guys like Wolfman, Ordway and Breyfogle on titles like this? Call it DC Classic, so it won't have the stigma of kids comics some hate, and it will appeal to kids and us old disenfranchised folk as well.

Chris

[ctc]

>I'd really like for DC to put out a line of all ages books with its super heroes

Y'know, I think this is a good idea.... but I wouldn't call it "all ages." They should have a line of kids books; so's to bring in the kids and seed the field for a new generation. The more controversioal material isn't new, it's part of the cycle. You "grown up" your material for an aging audience, and once they've moved on you lower the age again to bring in new readers. I think they've missed the boat 'cos they've been trying to appeal to an older crowd since the 80's. A lot of those folks have moved on, and they've done nothing to bring in new readers.

I think the 80's were a weird time for the superheroes. You saw big sales, but most of those were to speculators. X-Men #1 sold a million copies, but it wasn't a million folks buying it and reading it; it was 100,000 people buying 10 copies. (Or 50,000 people buying 20. I saw a lot of that working in a comic shop during that time.) I suspect the print runs nowadays (which seem to average 75,000 or so) is closer ot a true representation of readers, even counting "back in the day" numbers. Which causes a probelm for the companies 'cos they have the infrastructure of a company used to selling 400,000+ issues a month. Because of that they CAN'T experiment too much, and a kids line is an experiment.

They also have the 80's "no! comcs 'aint just for kids!" infrastructure and image to deal with. So even if they did a kids line it'd be tough to get it to an audience that cares. The comic shop crowd wouldn't go for it, and a more general audience will never see the stuff 'cos it gets very limited release anywhere else. (They shot themselves in the foot way back when, with their shifting the emphasis to the comic shop. Of course, that was probably somewhat neccessary, 'cos the 80's speculators would NEVER buy a folded, wrinkled, pre flipped through comic from a grocery store!)

I don't know if you'd ever see them do both kids and adult comics at the same time. There'd be too much concern over "brand confusion," and big companies tend to chase the same ball until it's run into the ground. But there IS an ebb and flow to "mainstream" comics.... has been for a while, and I think the Big Two-ish missed the last cycle.

Personally I'm not put off by the gruesome, vile aspects of some of their books. What puts me off is how casual and shallowly they handle it. Some things should have BIG effects on characters and settings, but they don't. They go away after an issue or so. Part of that is the nature of a perpetual book; part of it is the weird "plausible deniability" which the Big Two-ish have operated under for a LONG time. But I think when you write like that you fail at bringing in a more mature audience 'cos an older, mature mind would be aware of the consequences.... which we're not getting. So the stories don't ring true.

Don C.

[madmarva]

While I agree an all-ages line distributed through direct sales would mix the marketing message, a separate interactive digital site with weekly stories geared to a G audience might work.

DC's Adventures of Superman digital comics almost fits the bill right now. If DC added a similar Batman and Robin, Wonder Woman and maybe JLA and Titans series, geared the site to a younger audience, mix some reprints that aren't continuity specific, have an editorial voice that promotes a community feel like Stan Lee did with his Bullpen Bulletin in the 60s, maybe have an Answer Man feature and maybe some kids are reached.

Instead of reprinting the stories monthly as floppies, do it as a trade on a quarterly basis on cheaper paper and get them in Target and Walmart and Toys R Us and book and magazine stores at a reasonable price.

While I'm sure Marvel or DC would want to keep the hot creators for the main lines, there are scores of talented artists and writers who have already mastered the form who might like to work on such a line.

To me the art shouldn't be locked in to mimic Timmverse style, although that style shouldn't be shunned. One of the fun things about the digital Superman series is the variations in style.

I'm sure there are holes in the idea, but I'd appreciate a platform like this from Marvel and DC and I'm sure some families would too. I good friend of mine has a 6 and a 4 year old who love the heroes, but their Dad and Mom didn't feel Man of Steel or The Wolverine were appropriate for them. Similarly, the comics are tough because the content varies a great deal from month to month and overall, it's too graphic.

[ctc]

>a separate interactive digital site with weekly stories geared to a G audience might work

That's a great idea. Digital opens the door to all sorts of weird, experimental stuff. Unfortunately it seems like the big publishers are all terrified of it, and have no idea what to do with it. (One of the reasons digital copies are usually almost as expensive as print ones, even though the margins are a lot wider.)

>do it as a trade on a quarterly basis on cheaper paper and get them in Target and Walmart and Toys R Us and book and magazine stores at a reasonable price

That's how the Japanese won, so we know it works. It also takes the emphasis off of "collecting" and puts it back on "reading." Plus it's a format the younger members of the audience are used to. The problem here would be the publishing equivalent of peer pressure. The "gatekeepers," ....usually dad but also a cadre of extremely vocal oldster fans.... might be put off by this. "Pfeh! Looks like that Japanese crap! And look at the cheap paper! They're ripping us off!" Once the internet complaint machine fires up DC would probably flinch. (Since they're still stuck in the 80's and would be looking for an excuse to declare an experiment like this a failure so they can go back to the super-awesome-chocoltey-ashcan-limited-edition multiple covers.)

But that's why I said a while back that if DC (and Marvel) were serious about something new, and grabbing new readers they should be doing stuff like this.... that's actually, you know.... different.... oldsters be damned.

>there are scores of talented artists and writers who have already mastered the form who might like to work on such a line

....and if you follow any web comics it's not hard to find them. 'Course a lot of them are doing quite well with their own stuff on the internets and might not be swayed by working for a big company. But again, it demonstrates the viability of such things.

>although that style shouldn't be shunned

This is where you lose me. Timm's stuff works okay for animation, but it's really flat and featureless. A plus when you're doing tv (a freind of mine who works in animation loved his style "because he's stripped everything down to it's most basic elements and no matter what cheap-*** studio they farm it out to, they can't possibly screw it up!") but a problem for comics. (If Hawkgirl had to rescue Lana Lang from Poison Ivy you'd never be able to tell them apart.)

Don C.

[Aricosaur]

This thread has veered off of the original subject but I do like parts of the New 52. I'm getting everything Green Lantern (I got into it in the build-up to the movie and it stuck), Justice League and JLA, Aquaman, and the books actually titled Superman and Batman. (I had also been getting Hawk Man before he got absorbed into JLA and a few others here and there.)

Anecdotally, I think they have gotten better about the gore and moral decay in the New 52. The only thing objectionable I can think of is graphically slicing beings up in the first couple of issue of GL Corps. However, I do wish they would go more toward a Silver/Early Bronze age aesthetic. Comics should be for kids and kids at heart like me, imo.

By the way, I consider myself a Sci-fi comics guy first, then Marvel. Exploring DC, through the New 52 and cheap back issues, is a new exploration for me.

[enyawd72]

I think a key factor that has been overlooked at both DC and Marvel is that the current crop of people in charge, the writers and artists, have all forgotten the most basic aspect of the industry. They have tried to take ownership of the characters rather than be the custodians of them. They are doing things with the characters that their creators never would have approved of. I've never heard a satisfactory explanation as to WHY superheroes must constantly be reinvented. When you strip away everything that makes a character who he/she is and they become unrecognizable, you've done a disservice to that character.

[ctc]

>the writers and artists, have all forgotten the most basic aspect of the industry

Gorillas on covers sell?

> I've never heard a satisfactory explanation as to WHY superheroes must constantly be reinvented

Marketing. Times change, mores change, perspectives and propriety change. (40's Wonder Woman could be into bondage, 70's not so much.) Most superheroes are corporate properties and need to sell to a contemporary audience.

>They have tried to take ownership of the characters rather than be the custodians of them.

I completely disagree with this. Not that it happens, but that it's something new. As explained by my last point; they've ALWAYS changed superheroes. Hence Superman's escallating levels of power. "Leaping tall buildings" gets old, so suddenly he can fly, and lift the moon, and shoot lasers out of his eyes. Hell; the Siver Age was predecated on this concept. It wasn't until Marvel that anyone really cared; and even then for the longest time after it was okay to completely juggle stuff as long as you put the thin veneer of continuity over it.

Don C.

[VintageMike]

Enjoying the Batman and main Justice League titles mostly. As someone said earlier it's been dialed down a lot since they launched this. To the point I don't think the graphic stuff was ever meant to be permanent. Just there in the beginning to create a buzz.