Fantastic critique of Silver Surfer #1

[kingdom warrior]

To be fair, Kirby's memories are not always consistent or historically accurate. I think it's fair to say that both Lee and Kirby revised things in their minds, either consciously or sub-consciously. A key difference to me is that Lee in full fledged pitch-man mode promoted a lot of stories that he clearly concocted because they sounded great. Even later he recanted a lot of these, but some of that stuff still taints the history to this day.

Oh I know that, and again Lee had a Flair for words that Kirby didn't. as you know. Kirby was a tough city kid,who learned to draw and create to make
money to survive,later to care for his wife and family. Lee for years Hyped the marvel brand and was Blessed and managed the 27 Yankees...lol He had a who's who of Superstars that worked for Marvel at that time. C'mon Jack Kirby the friggin' Babe Ruth of Comic books....lol

[enyawd72]

I stand by my comments. DC recreated their golden age heroes, and it wasn't until then that Stan Lee was asked to come up with something for Marvel, and he came up with a LOT of somethings. Prior to that he was doing exactly what his publisher told him to do. It doesn't mean he wasn't creative or had no ideas. More like he wasn't allowed to do anything with them.
Stan gave no one credit in the 60's and 70's? Sorry bud, but that's total BS and you know it. Lee's promotion of the Marvel bullpen and credits on EVERY splash page of every Marvel comic say otherwise. I can also provide you with a very nice scan of a Marvel SC edition from 1979 where Stan gives full credit and thanks to Simon and Kirby for creating Captain America, singing their praises and saying what an honor it was to work with them if you'd like.
Marvel even put out RECORDS for crying out loud with Jack Kirby and the gang introducing themselves to the fans. What more do you want? Show me where DC ever did anything even remotely close to that? I also stand by my Steve Ditko comments...he could have basked in glory and recognition when Spidey hit theatres...he chose to stay in the shadows. I know I've read several times over the years where he's declined interviews.

[kingdom warrior]

I stand by my comments. DC recreated their golden age heroes, and it wasn't until then that Stan Lee was asked to come up with something for Marvel, and he came up with a LOT of somethings. Prior to that he was doing exactly what his publisher told him to do. It doesn't mean he wasn't creative or had no ideas. More like he wasn't allowed to do anything with them.
Stan gave no one credit in the 60's and 70's? Sorry bud, but that's total BS and you know it. Lee's promotion of the Marvel bullpen and credits on EVERY splash page of every Marvel comic say otherwise. I can also provide you with a very nice scan of a Marvel SC edition from 1979 where Stan gives full credit and thanks to Simon and Kirby for creating Captain America, singing their praises and saying what an honor it was to work with them if you'd like.
Marvel even put out RECORDS for crying out loud with Jack Kirby and the gang introducing themselves to the fans. What more do you want? Show me where DC ever did anything even remotely close to that? I also stand by my Steve Ditko comments...he could have basked in glory and recognition when Spidey hit theatres...he chose to stay in the shadows. I know I've read several times over the years where he's declined interviews.

Sorry Bud, but that's BS and you know it?.......You don't know me from a Hole in the wall, to assume anything about me or what I know......and Credit? You mean Created by Stan Lee and someone else Sorry to bust your bubble; in those True believer days he never had that little blurb, or shared in the profits with Kirby and Ditko and the rest of the Marvel legends.

For years he went around saying HE created those characters, WHY? because he WORKED for Marvel he was a higher up not some Freelancer peeon...you don't share profits with the employers, even though they did the bulk of the work.

Put out records? and what did that do for Kirby's wallet? Nothing. That was Stan's little Marketing strategy to promo Marvel to the kiddies....I'm sure Ditko was thrilled when Stan pitched that Idea to him..NOT
DC doing what put out records??? lol are you kidding me? Stan doesn't need to shout out that Cap was Simon and Kirby's character everyone knew from day one he did not create that character...Nor Did he create Sub-mariner or the Original Human Torch or any left overs from Timely comics.

Do you really think everyone wants to bask in glory for something they co-created and then get shunned by Marvel for years. Ditko was is in his own world. He happily went along continuing to make his own creations. Some people in this world are not motivated by taps in the back or fan adulation. Some people actually just like creating work that is meaningful to them......if people dig it more power to them.

[Brazoo]

I stand by my comments. DC recreated their golden age heroes, and it wasn't until then that Stan Lee was asked to come up with something for Marvel, and he came up with a LOT of somethings. Prior to that he was doing exactly what his publisher told him to do. It doesn't mean he wasn't creative or had no ideas. More like he wasn't allowed to do anything with them.
Stan gave no one credit in the 60's and 70's? Sorry bud, but that's total BS and you know it. Lee's promotion of the Marvel bullpen and credits on EVERY splash page of every Marvel comic say otherwise. I can also provide you with a very nice scan of a Marvel SC edition from 1979 where Stan gives full credit and thanks to Simon and Kirby for creating Captain America, singing their praises and saying what an honor it was to work with them if you'd like.
Marvel even put out RECORDS for crying out loud with Jack Kirby and the gang introducing themselves to the fans. What more do you want? Show me where DC ever did anything even remotely close to that? I also stand by my Steve Ditko comments...he could have basked in glory and recognition when Spidey hit theatres...he chose to stay in the shadows. I know I've read several times over the years where he's declined interviews.

I never said Lee didn't credit his collaborators, I said that I've never heard of an instance where he shared a writer's credit or acknowledged that the artists co-wrote with him. He coveted being a writer - and that's how he promoted himself. He's never changed his stance on that issue, even after he describes the "Marvel method" which clearly proves that he, at best, shared writing WITH the artists.

Ditko could have "basked in the glory" and chose not to. That's true. Your concept of why he chose not to is pure conjecture. He's a very unusual person, and what IS known about him doesn't support your view. Without getting into politics (as per the rules of this forum) I don't think it's difficult to think that a person who enthusiastically subscribes to objectivism would have less interest in the mainstream views - apart from wanting to change them. I don't think Spider-Man was something he was obsessed with - as it seems to me the Randian obsession took over before he left Marvel.

It might be hard for you and me to think that creating something like Spider-Man wouldn't be on his mind all the time, but he's not like you and me.

[Brazoo]

One thing the review pointed out: I do appreciate Buscema's take on Surfer. Usually I think he suits rougher and tougher subjects, like Thor and Conan. I'm not too crazy about Buscema's FF - for example - but Surfer does have a certain grace. Yeah, his cosmic imagery is a little muddy (like the review pointed out) but the Surfer looks cool.

[enyawd72]

Sorry Bud, but that's BS and you know it?.......You don't know me from a Hole in the wall, to assume anything about me or what I know......and Credit? You mean Created by Stan Lee and someone else Sorry to bust your bubble; in those True believer days he never had that little blurb, or shared in the profits with Kirby and Ditko and the rest of the Marvel legends.

For years he went around saying HE created those characters, WHY? because he WORKED for Marvel he was a higher up not some Freelancer peeon...you don't share profits with the employers, even though they did the bulk of the work.

Put out records? and what did that do for Kirby's wallet? Nothing. That was Stan's little Marketing strategy to promo Marvel to the kiddies....I'm sure Ditko was thrilled when Stan pitched that Idea to him..NOT
DC doing what put out records??? lol are you kidding me? Stan doesn't need to shout out that Cap was Simon and Kirby's character everyone knew from day one he did not create that character...Nor Did he create Sub-mariner or the Original Human Torch or any left overs from Timely comics.

Do you really think everyone wants to bask in glory for something they co-created and then get shunned by Marvel for years. Ditko was is in his own world. He happily went along continuing to make his own creations. Some people in this world are not motivated by taps in the back or fan adulation. Some people actually just like creating work that is meaningful to them......if people dig it more power to them.

Okay. We obviously aren't going to agree on this so there's no point in arguing. You're entitled to your opinion...I'm entitled to mine. Neither of us will ever really know what went on behind the scenes at Marvel back in the day. I will say this though, if Ditko was happy in his own world and only wanted to create meaningful art he shouldn't have chosen a career in commercial illustration, which is what comics are. It's kinda like my magazine cover gig you know? I have to paint what I'm TOLD to paint, not what fulfills me as an artist. Sometimes I'm into the subject matter, other times not, but it's my job, and I have to do it.
Anyway...I appreciate your comments. No hard feelings.

[kingdom warrior]

Okay. We obviously aren't going to agree on this so there's no point in arguing. You're entitled to your opinion...I'm entitled to mine. Neither of us will ever really know what went on behind the scenes at Marvel back in the day. I will say this though, if Ditko was happy in his own world and only wanted to create meaningful art he shouldn't have chosen a career in commercial illustration, which is what comics are. It's kinda like my magazine cover gig you know? I have to paint what I'm TOLD to paint, not what fulfills me as an artist. Sometimes I'm into the subject matter, other times not, but it's my job, and I have to do it.
Anyway...I appreciate your comments. No hard feelings.

None taken......Tone sometimes can't be read in writings. Debate and sharing different Ideas leads to better understanding of subjects. It's ok to be passionate I can understand that........I'm a Freelance Illustrator also, Just like a few guys on here......I get you. No worries.

[Brazoo]

I will say this though, if Ditko was happy in his own world and only wanted to create meaningful art he shouldn't have chosen a career in commercial illustration, which is what comics are.

Not to belabor this, but you're side-stepping the point. Just because somebody takes a line of work doesn't mean he has to do the same thing for life. His views changed, and he changed his job. It seems to me that your love of Spider-Man is causing you some sense of betrayed feelings towards Ditko or something.

"Neither of us will ever really know what went on behind the scenes at Marvel back in the day." that is exactly why I thought this analysis of Silver Surfer #1 was interesting. Obviously you have to draw your own conclusions from his opinions - and if you think this work is as powerful as Lee's Kirby/Ditko collaborations you'll disagree with the review.