Fantastic critique of Silver Surfer #1

[Brazoo]

This is a fantastic (and I think very fair) critique highlighting the weaknesses of Stan Lee's creative and story telling abilities. Specifically looking at Lee without Kirby and Ditko.

As some of you might recall, I'm a huge critic of Lee's self-awarded and unshared writing credits, and I think this essay supports my views.

"Kirby knew how to fill up a comic with characters, with purpose. Stan knew how to fill one up with words."

http://www.tcj.com/silver-surfer-1-an-examination/#comment-301248

[enyawd72]

Guy sounds like he has a beef with Lee to me.

Stan Lee's "words" and storytelling style are a huge part of what made 60's Marvel great. As far as him sharing credit, I think he's always done that. He was very conscious of the Marvel Bullpen and making sure the fans knew who all the talented folks were who worked on the books, right down to the letterer.

And Stan DEFINITELY knows how to fill a comic with character. He was the one to give superheroes personalities, and seriously, name one other writer in comics who came up with as many successful character ideas as Lee. Bob Kane, Siegel and Schuster, etc. were all one hit wonders.

[Brazoo]

I'm not sure he's as harsh on Lee as I often am. Obviosly I pulled one of his stronger points for the quote I used.

If you think Silver Surfer #1 is on par with Lee's classic Kirby and Ditko collaborations then that's cool, but personally I side with this essay.

To answer your question, I think Lee came up with about 4 or 5 different personalities and applied them to all the different Marvel characters. It's fine, but I think the stuff that stands out are the ideas that Kirby and Ditko pushed for. Specifically Silver Surfer seemed much stranger in the original FF issues. In Lee's hands he's another weepy Marvel outcast. He liked what worked, and that's fine. I just find it less interesting.

[Earth 2 Chris]

I think saying Lee was a no talent hack has become too pervasive. Because of the raw deal Kirby suffered and the silence of Ditko, Stan has become a target for irate fans. Sure some of it is his own doing, but a lot of it stems from the thought that if you like Kirby, you have to hate Lee. I don't buy into that. I think Kirby made some bad business decisions when separated from the much savvier Joe Simon. I don't think Stan or Goodman appreciated or took care of Kirby like they should have, but I can't entirely blame Lee for Kirby's treatment.

Even if you go with the idea that in later years Stan didn't plot any of the stories, the dialog and narrative was still part of the appeal. Sure, Kirby was undoutedly the more imaginative and talented of the two, but Stan did his part. I do wish Kirby and Ditko got more mainstream press, but one is dead and the other is a strange recluse. Lee is a master of self-promotion, and the media has been eating him up in one way or another since the mid-60s.

Chris

Edited because I goofed the names up in one place!

[Iron Mego]

"Kirby is a master of self-promotion, and the media has been eating him up in one way or another since the mid-60s."

I think you meant Lee here?

[hedrap]

Each of the Big Three were rehashing themselves during Marvelmania.

Ditko was the only one who was self-aware enough to care about it.

Look at Challengers of the Unknown, then the FF, the Early Tales To... books and you see Stan and Jack were playing mix-n-match with previous ideas.

Where I agree that Stan loved to dive headfirst into melodrama, Jack proved that when he was given free reign, the end product was all great visuals saving a ton of hokum ideas. You don't see that during Marvelmania because the team balanced each other.

Challengers of the Unknown is one side of the coin. Without Stan, you've get ho-hum Jonny Quest. With Stan, you get the FF. You see the other side when Kirby leaves Marvel in late 1970 and the next year, one of the first "big ideas" is a rehash of the Avengers. If Jack was around, the Defenders wouldn't have been such a mediocre derivative.

. If Jack had stayed, Fourth World would have been Marvel and blended seamlessly into the Silver Surfer or Thor mythos. When you consider the storylines that could have been spawned off of that...

[Brazoo]

I think saying Lee was a no talent hack has become too pervasive. Because of the raw deal Kirby suffered and the silence of Ditko, Stan has become a target for irate fans. Sure some of it is his own doing, but a lot of it stems from the thought that if you like Kirby, you have to hate Lee. I don't buy into that.

I'm a huge Kirby guy, and I am often a Lee critic - but speaking for myself I wouldn't call Lee a "no talent hack".

Without question Lee had talent - I just think this kind of analysis helps point out what Lee's talents really were, and what his limitations were. I STILL come across comic fans who know who Lee is and don't know who Kirby and Ditko are, so that gets under my skin.

Personally, I've probably softened up on Lee over the years. Some of that initial anger was probably hurt feelings from finding out how flawed my idol was, to be honest.

[Brazoo]

Each of the Big Three were rehashing themselves during Marvelmania.

Ditko was the only one who was self-aware enough to care about it.

Look at Challengers of the Unknown, then the FF, the Early Tales To... books and you see Stan and Jack were playing mix-n-match with previous ideas.

Where I agree that Stan loved to dive headfirst into melodrama, Jack proved that when he was given free reign, the end product was all great visuals saving a ton of hokum ideas. You don't see that during Marvelmania because the team balanced each other.

Challengers of the Unknown is one side of the coin. Without Stan, you've get ho-hum Jonny Quest. With Stan, you get the FF. You see the other side when Kirby leaves Marvel in late 1970 and the next year, one of the first "big ideas" is a rehash of the Avengers. If Jack was around, the Defenders wouldn't have been such a mediocre derivative.

. If Jack had stayed, Fourth World would have been Marvel and blended seamlessly into the Silver Surfer or Thor mythos. When you consider the storylines that could have been spawned off of that...

I agree the balance was needed, Kirby usually NEEDS a good editor or the ideas just come gushing. There's also no question that if Kirby would have stayed at Marvel somehow it would have been incredible. Having said that, I think some of Kirby's DC work is incredible - even if his ideas are sometimes a little derivative. (Though, I'd argue that ALL superhero characters are.)

I also think there are plenty of times as an editor Lee should have taken a step back. For example, Silver Surfer was a character primarily conceived by Kirby, and he was much more alien in his hands. Much more mysterious. In Lee's hands he instantly becomes part of Lee's reliable formula.

There's a very similar parallel story with FF #s 66-67 and Kirby's original plan for the Him (Adam Warlock) story line. From what I recall, Kirby originally planned for the scientists who created Him to be morally grey. Kirby wanted to explore scientist doing morally questionable things with the greater good in mind, but when Lee scripted on top of Kirby's story he changed it so they were old-fashioned boiler plate baddies.

[Earth 2 Chris]

"Kirby is a master of self-promotion, and the media has been eating him up in one way or another since the mid-60s."

I think you meant Lee here?

D'oh! Yes, of course I meant Lee. Kirby would have been a gazillionaire with Lee's promotional charm.

Chris

[kingdom warrior]

Guy sounds like he has a beef with Lee to me.

Stan Lee's "words" and storytelling style are a huge part of what made 60's Marvel great. As far as him sharing credit, I think he's always done that. He was very conscious of the Marvel Bullpen and making sure the fans knew who all the talented folks were who worked on the books, right down to the letterer.

And Stan DEFINITELY knows how to fill a comic with character. He was the one to give superheroes personalities, and seriously, name one other writer in comics who came up with as many successful character ideas as Lee. Bob Kane, Siegel and Schuster, etc. were all one hit wonders.

Stan Lee's EDITING and use of the Marvel Method was what made Marvel Great! Stan was a Great, Pitch man,Salesman and Ringmaster. He played with HYPING the bullpen up and making up stories to sell an Idea to kids and Teens of the time.....cause it was Groovy! Stan, reworded much of the dialog that Kirby had already written alongside the art and gave it a bit more flair since Stan knew how to jazz and hype things up.

Name one Writer who Co-Created many Superheroes: Stan Lee; Now name the Superheroes Stan Lee created before the 60's Marvel Revolution and after Kirby and Ditko Left very little to none....

It's Like Lennon and McCartney, both extremely talented, both worked together and separate during the Beatles heyday. The main difference when the Beatles split,BOTH continued to make excellent music.

What Superheroes did Stan Lee create in the 40's and 50's on his own? or Which ones did he create on his own in the 70's and 80's?

Kirby and Ditko in the 70's and early 80's continued to give us new heroes and new stories......Stan was in Publishing Marvel books and selling the Hype. Then went onto Hollywood.

I find it interesting the Stan lee the writer didn't continue writing and creating heroes after Kirby and Ditko left, but in the beginning he sure took a lot of credit for himself in telling people he Created it all by his lonesome.

Spiderman was an Idea that was floating around until it fell on his desk,then he handed the idea over to Steve Ditko, and Ditko created one of the most striking and Iconic costumes ever......The Fantasic Four, One Part challengers of the unknown, Borrow Plastic man, Kirby's 50's Monsters The Thing, The Invisible Woman and rename her Invisible Girl and take Carl Burgos Human Torch and make him a Teen so the kids can relate and rename them the Fantastic Four......not so original but nice creative plagiarism.

Gotta give Stan credit man knew how to sell comic books hype to kids.....Excelsior!!! and even that's was Taken from New York's motto...lmao!!! Damn Stan!!! lol


I found this Allan Moore video piece to be a bit inaccurate but very amusing .....

[enyawd72]

Stan Lee's EDITING and use of the Marvel Method was what made Marvel Great! Stan was a Great, Pitch man,Salesman and Ringmaster. He played with HYPING the bullpen up and making up stories to sell an Idea to kids and Teens of the time.....cause it was Groovy! Stan, reworded much of the dialog that Kirby had already written alongside the art and gave it a bit more flair since Stan knew how to jazz and hype things up.

Name one Writer who Co-Created many Superheroes: Stan Lee; Now name the Superheroes Stan Lee created before the 60's Marvel Revolution and after Kirby and Ditko Left very little to none....

It's Like Lennon and McCartney, both extremely talented, both worked together and separate during the Beatles heyday. The main difference when the Beatles split,BOTH continued to make excellent music.

What Superheroes did Stan Lee create in the 40's and 50's on his own? or Which ones did he create on his own in the 70's and 80's?

Kirby and Ditko in the 70's and early 80's continued to give us new heroes and new stories......Stan was in Publishing Marvel books and selling the Hype. Then went onto Hollywood.

I find it interesting the Stan lee the writer didn't continue writing and creating heroes after Kirby and Ditko left, but in the beginning he sure took a lot of credit for himself in telling people he Created it all by his lonesome.

Spiderman was an Idea that was floating around until it fell on his desk,then he handed the idea over to Steve Ditko, and Ditko created one of the most striking and Iconic costumes ever......The Fantasic Four, One Part challengers of the unknown, Borrow Plastic man, Kirby's 50's Monsters The Thing, The Invisible Woman and rename her Invisible Girl and take Carl Burgos Human Torch and make him a Teen so the kids can relate and rename them the Fantastic Four......not so original but nice creative plagiarism.

Gotta give Stan credit man knew how to sell comic books hype to kids.....Excelsior!!! and even that's was Taken from New York's motto...lmao!!! Damn Stan!!! lol


I found this Allan Moore video piece to be a bit inaccurate but very amusing .....

So you concede Stan was a great editor...okay.

Stan didn't create any superheroes before the 60's because he wasn't ASKED to. Superhero books weren't selling at that point, remember? When he was asked to come up with some, he did it his way. After the 60's revolution, he didn't create any more because he didn't NEED to. Marvel had a completely full roster of heroes by then, all different. He was still coming up with secondary heroes, supporting cast, and villains.

Stan definitely continued writing after Kirby and Ditko left. He was still writing Spider-Man for a quite while after John Romita took over, and that's just the first one that comes to mind.

Stan was always giving other writers and artists their due. He was crediting Ditko for co-plotting/writing right in the ASM books as early as 1965. You can't fault Stan Lee for being a pitchman. Stan naturally became more associated with the creation of Marvel's characters in the public's mind because he was the one who made himself VISIBLE, not because he failed to recognize or promote the talents of others.

Steve Ditko has been credited with co-creating Spider-Man by Stan for YEARS. Ditko could have very easily been standing right next to Stan on the red carpet at the premieres of all four Spider-Man films, but he CHOOSES not to. He CHOOSES not to do interviews. Why? He'd rather be a recluse and continue sulking about perceived wrongs he was dealt 40 years ago. Thats HIS choice.

[kingdom warrior]

So you concede Stan was a great editor...okay.

Stan didn't create any superheroes before the 60's because he wasn't ASKED to. Superhero books weren't selling at that point, remember? When he was asked to come up with some, he did it his way. After the 60's revolution, he didn't create any more because he didn't NEED to. Marvel had a completely full roster of heroes by then, all different. He was still coming up with secondary heroes, supporting cast, and villains.

Stan definitely continued writing after Kirby and Ditko left. He was still writing Spider-Man for a quite while after John Romita took over, and that's just the first one that comes to mind.

Stan was always giving other writers and artists their due. He was crediting Ditko for co-plotting/writing right in the ASM books as early as 1965. You can't fault Stan Lee for being a pitchman. Stan naturally became more associated with the creation of Marvel's characters in the public's mind because he was the one who made himself VISIBLE, not because he failed to recognize or promote the talents of others.

Steve Ditko has been credited with co-creating Spider-Man by Stan for YEARS. Ditko could have very easily been standing right next to Stan on the red carpet at the premieres of all four Spider-Man films, but he CHOOSES not to. He CHOOSES not to do interviews. Why? He'd rather be a recluse and continue sulking about perceived wrongs he was dealt 40 years ago. Thats HIS choice.

He wasn't asked to? No, He wasn't capable of it...big difference. When you're a real writer. You can pump ot practically anything even if your heart is not into it. A writer, writes. Most Superhero books disappeared in the 50's. BUT hmmmm there was a Brilliant editor from the Bronx called Julius Schwartz who did something ballsy. He reinvented the Superhero genre by taking Dc's old hero's and spinning new ideas and added a flair of Sci Fi into it and then enlisted some of the greatest writers and artist and rebooted the whole thing.

Stan wrote very little after Kirby left, sorry by 72 he wrote very little an focused on publishing. She Hulk was Stan's last character he CO-CREATED with John Buscema and only wrote that issue and if that since Stan always uses the marvel Method fill in the words.

Stan in the 60's 70's Gave NO ONE their due, It wasn't till the 80's and 90's when it was starting to come out that others wanted co-creator rights up till then they were work for hire peeons......


Stan only gave Ditko acknowledged Co-creator rights in the late 90's when Ditko called him out on it and Lee Knew the new Spiderman movie was not to far away from finally being made.

Ditko sulking do you know that as a fact? did you speak to him did he tell you that??? Only Ditko and Lee know who really did what, What we the public know with a little fact checking is Stan took all the credit because he worked for Marvel. Kirby, Ditko and the rest were work for hire freelancers.....and Stan wanted to make a name for himself. He promoted himself once he got to Hollywood cause he had the Marvel brand...the artist who did the hard labor did not.......

[kingdom warrior]

Also find me ONE interview where Stan breaks down how he created a superhero, How did he come to that point in detail......we all know now his i saw a spider on the wall story was BS in creating Spiderman. Find me one interview where he tells in detail how he wrote and came up with stories? Most writers can tell you well i did this i read that I loved this and I took from that......

you can find articles on Julius Schwartz the Genius at DC. How he came up with concepts, How he worked with artist and writers and how he polished up what they wrote.....and it was DC's reinvention of the Superhero Genre that sparked the rebirth of marvel when Martin Goodman came to Lee and said make me a new Suphero team....because the JLA books were selling like hot cakes. Lee who had been planning to leave comics, then on the urging of his wife said ok and had nothing to lose but try....and so he WITH Jack Kirby came up wit the Fantastic Four........NOT he sat down and wrote a full script and then took it to Kirby and said go with this......


I've seen Kirby interviews and when asked how did you get those ideas? he can give you details how he did it......

[Brazoo]

I've personally never heard or read Lee share writing credit with one of his collaborators. He maybe occasionally has said his artists came up with an idea, but I've never heard him specify they co-wrote anything. He's VERY stuck on the idea that what he did was write, when even by his own accounts he co-wrote almost everything. At best.

Why? He'd rather be a recluse and continue sulking about perceived wrongs he was dealt 40 years ago. Thats HIS choice.

With all due respect that is complete conjecture.

From what I understand Ditko's idealogical obsession with Rand put him at odds with Lee, and he stopped talking to him. He left Marvel so he could pursue making comics with less restrictions so he could promote his political views, and he did that for 30 plus years, primarily creating (some extremely nutty) comics he owned the rights to. The creator ownership also adhered to his political identity.

I have read accounts of people who have spoken to Ditko over the years, and they don't characterize him as sulking or obsessed with Spider-man. I think in many ways he fulfilled himself creatively the way he wanted to. Even if his later work made little sense to me, I admire that.

[Brazoo]

Also find me ONE interview where Stan breaks down how he created a superhero, How did he come to that point in detail......we all know now his i saw a spider on the wall story was BS in creating Spiderman. Find me one interview where he tells in detail how he wrote and came up with stories? Most writers can tell you well i did this i read that I loved this and I took from that......

you can find articles on Julius Schwartz the Genius at DC. How he came up with concepts, How he worked with artist and writers and how he polished up what they wrote.....and it was DC's reinvention of the Superhero Genre that sparked the rebirth of marvel when Martin Goodman came to Lee and said make me a new Suphero team....because the JLA books were selling like hot cakes. Lee who had been planning to leave comics, then on the urging of his wife said ok and had nothing to lose but try....and so he WITH Jack Kirby came up wit the Fantastic Four........NOT he sat down and wrote a full script and then took it to Kirby and said go with this......


I've seen Kirby interviews and when asked how did you get those ideas? he can give you details how he did it......

To be fair, Kirby's memories are not always consistent or historically accurate. I think it's fair to say that both Lee and Kirby revised things in their minds, either consciously or sub-consciously. A key difference to me is that Lee in full fledged pitch-man mode promoted a lot of stories that he clearly concocted because they sounded great. Even later he recanted a lot of these, but some of that stuff still taints the history to this day.