Forever Evil SPOILER: Nightwing Is Really....

[madmarva]

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This mini series isn't supposed to be a game-changer like Death of Superman or when Batman's back was broken or Hal Jordan went crazy and killed the corps, although I do think DC probably wanted to spur up some Labor Day, slow news day publicity.

The regular storylines pick back up next month. It's just another Crime Syndicate story, that starts with the JLA being out of play or dead, but just like every comic from the 60s, 70s and 80s that had a premise with the hero dying, you know there is some mitigating circumstance that will be revealed later.

Johns is just going to be able to use his favorite villains as heroes - Luthor, Sinestro, Black Adam and so on - to fight the Crime Syndicate for a month.

Nightwing's identity being revealed sets up an interesting situation that has to be resolved. Isn't that what a writer is supposed to set up at the beginning of a series?

No matter what DC representatives have ever said in the past, including Johns, the new 52 is a brand new Earth and new continuity. It's no continuation of Earth 1 or post Crisis or post infinite crisis Earths.

It may have started with that idea, but within the first year of stories, it was clear that wasnt the case. If the new52 books haven't mentioned it happened, you cannot take for granted that it did. the old stories are there if the creators want to rely on them, but writers aren't beholden to them if they want to go in a different direction.

I know everyone has their own likes and dislikes, and I had rather read new stories in keeping with the old continuity, too, but Forever Evil was a fun comic, a nice opening to a mini series and a very silver-age idea to boot.

Finch isn't a great artist, imo. But he told the story well enough. The opening scenes with Luthor are excellent. Ultra Man moving the moon and it not wreaking havoc on the Earth flies in the face of science, but it's a comic book and his reason for doing so was fun.

Will this live up to some of Johns other work? I don't know. But the first issue was fun. I like the idea of Power Ring being a trembling coward and the evil Firestorm having Professor Stein's ghost being fused with Ronnie Raymond.

Ultraman cooking down Kryptonite, which makes him more powerful, with his heat vision and snorting the vapors like crack was a nice bit, too.

[Earth 2 Chris]

^I'm glad you are enjoying. I try not to go all Nerd Rage on the New 52 these days. Folks like Carl have pointed out that some people here do indeed enjoy the new stuff, and I say more power to you. I don't begrudge you that enjoyment at all. I need to remind myself that my opinions are my own and that I don't really need to get worked up over this stuff.

I will say I think Johns sometimes enjoys making the villains heroic a bit too much. You can develop the characters so far, but I think he sometimes goes a bit far in making these irredeemable characters suddenly redeemable for a moment. To me that takes away from the heroes a bit. But that's just my beef.

Chris

[hedrap]

Marva - I like it when some things work, as you mentioned, but I it's so disparate, it screams "Trademark application/renewal" to me.

That's the problem with big crossovers; they're not done because the story lines call for it. It's the equivalent of when Lost added another two seasons because ABC was addicted and couldn't let it go. It destroyed their ratings and the story never recovered.

I can make the same argument for the new Infinity series, except Marvel is laying groundwork to bolster their movies.

[BlackKnight]

BAH !!!



I can't keep up with this nonsense. ...
Bring Back Blackest Night.

[ctc]

>At this rate I can see stuff piling on where once again they'll back themselves into a corner and have to reboot again to get out from under all of the debris.

They are just about due. The reboot has been a semi-annual tradition at DC for a while now.

> Isn't the whole point of the New 52 that its fresh to begin with?

That was their noiminal idea; but right off the cuff they went all typical. (Like announcing that their NEW target audiences was males, 14 to 25. Yeah, them folks NEVER read superhero books....) But it's a difficult prospect from the get-go. As has been mentioned a FEW times, they're starting to collapse under the weight of all their "events," which is how it ALWAYS plays out; since the books are perpetual. You canh't really shake things up when you have limited parameters for the book, and a new one has to come out next month.

>DC underestimated demand for the special covers and is allocating them per retailer. So sales wise this event is already a hit for them.

We're doing that again? Well.... it IS the 90's once more. (I guess even the fans have forgotten now.) The problem is the nature of comics has changed, and the Big Two-ish didn't. Today's fans are used to a story that continues and is always readily available. The past can't go away any more. Think about "The Walking Dead." Anyone who wants to get into the series, at any point can 'cos the comics are collected into compilations. THAT'S the nature of today's comic: a progressing story. The events of the comic are tangible because the whole history of the story is readily available. The Big Two-ish seem caught between that, and the old way of doing things.... and they haven't worked out a resolution yet. Hence the semi-annual DC reboot, and the semi-annual Marvel big non-event.

I still say they should do like "Zot" and just say it's always 1982. Or whatever date they decide. Or maybe like "Judge Dredd" and say that for every year that passes a year (or whatever) passes in the comic. ('Course then you'd have to deal with characters getting old and moving on.) Or maybe what they used to do and just ignore time altogether but build the story from fixed occurences.

Don C.

[madmarva]

Hedrep, I get what you are saying about the trademarks and you're right, but Johns has been setting up Forever Evil in the JL and JLA comics for about six months, which may be more like 9 months to a year in development. So I think he is perusing the storyline he wants under the constraints he has to work under.

Did Diddio and Lee come to him and say we need to use the Crime Syndicate for trademark purposes within the next year, and Johns then developed the story? Maybe. But it was probably more like what can we do line wise to promote the second anniversary of the New52.

But there's not a lot of difference in either of those situations than when Goodman told Lee to create a super team because Justice League was selling well, and Lee and Kirby developed the Fantastic Four. Or Bob Kane and Bill Finger cooking up Batman to draft off Superman's momentum.

Will Johns spring a character or a team out of Forever Evil that will have the impact of Batman or FF? No, of course not, but as you've pointed out, DC really just wants him and its other creators to keep the characters/licenses it already has as viable as possible for commercial exploitation.

But I think Johns is attempting to produce entertaining material under the hack-like conditions that everyone producing comics for anyone other than themselves works under.

Hey, I still get a kick out of reading super hero comics, which I still believe is the medium the characters work best. Again, I would rather the old continuity be used, but right now that's not the way it is, so I am enjoying what I can and not worrying about the rest.

I'm interested in how DC does handle the Grayson reveal because it does seem to give a ton away.

Chris, I didn't and don't take offense, man, I just like to discuss. If I had read the book and just thought it was average, I probably wouldn't have jumped into the discussion, or I possibly would have ragged on it, too.

But I read it and thought it was fun, and only really wanted to say so is in case someone might be reading this thread and be on the fence about buying it. I think most who enjoy super heroes and aren't too put off by Johns' writing would probably enjoy it if they let themselves. But there is a ton of other things to spend time and money on.

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But, I do think it will be Dick Grayson and a modified version Legion of Doom vs. the Crime Syndicate, when all is said and done.
Johns did some neat things with the characters. The female Atom was a triple agent who infiltrated the Justice League early this year, not just for Waller but also for the Crime Syndicate. DeathStorm is a fusion of Ronnie Raymond and Prof. stein's ghost who died in the accident that created the character. The Crime Syndicate's Aquaman (hook and long hair) died when the CS moved between Earths. Cyborg was taken over by a computer virus who is a member of the Crime Syndicate, called the grid, and he is messing with the world's computers.

Again, the early scenes with Luthor are almost classic, not Quite up there with Byrne's superman No 2 and the Byrne backup story where Luthor messes with the waitress, but it's really good stuff, pointing out how evil he is and then his evil is trumped by Ultraman and his cohorts.

Oh well, it's just fun to be discussing an actual comic book on this forum rather than a movie.

[The Toyroom]

Geoff Johns probably still is the best writer that DC has, able to spin new yarns while shoe-horning in a lot of "wink wink nudge nudge" fanboy stuff and making it all work and make sense. However, I think since becoming one of the "head honchos" and with the birth of the New 52 that his best work is behind him. I think he's doing the best he can but his hands may be tied somewhat since everything has become more corporate instead of just letting the man do what he did best...tell good stories.

And here's another side bar that I find somewhat annoying....The Royal Flush Gang. If you're familiar with the RFG in the DCU, then you know that the 5 members look like the King, Queen, Jack, Ace and Ten of Spades. Literally. Until "Forever Evil", where they're reimagined to look exactly like they appear in the "Arrow" TV series. Which is thugs with playing card inspired masks. Is it really necessary to have that kind of watered down synergy between a TV show and the comic books? If you can't be over the top and unrealistic in a comic book, where CAN you be? I think they're trying to hard to emulate the success Marvel has had balancing its four color and live action universes.

[madmarva]

Totally agree with you on the Royal Flush Gang. If comics readers can make the jump and accept the TV versions of the characters then the same should be expected from TV fans that might, might pick up a comic after watching the Arrow TV show. By the way, I love Austin's customs of those characters.

I know I'm in the minority, but my biggest gripe with the New 52 are the crappy character redesigns. I can't name one off the top of my head that is actually an improvement.

As for Johns, you may be right. Trinity War started off really solid, but with the climax given away in the solicitations, it limped to an end before transitioning to Forever Evil.

On GL, he really seemed like he was treading water except with the Simon Baz intro and his final issue, which I thought was really good.

Most of his Justice League hasn't been bad, but he certainly hasn't knocked it out of the park. Just solid, but nothing to be excited about.

I'm way behind on Aquaman. Haven't read an issue since since Reis left on the art and while I liked the first 12 or 13 issues, I haven't missed reading it.

[The Toyroom]

I know I'm in the minority, but my biggest gripe with the New 52 are the crappy character redesigns. I can't name one off the top of my head that is actually an improvement.

I agree with you here. To me, it seems like these new designs have been made with video games in mind. Nothing stellar has come out of any of it. In my opinion, costumes for timeless characters like Superman and Batman should be timeless and not inspired by flavor-of-the-month. Although there may be complaints that Superman with red undies on the outside may seem dated for example, it has been the status quo for decades and guaranteed that the Kryptonian armor is what actually will look dated at some point and go the way of the Avengers leather jackets and the X-Men's black leather suits.

As for Johns, you may be right. Trinity War started off really solid, but with the climax given away in the solicitations, it limped to an end before transitioning to Forever Evil.

On GL, he really seemed like he was treading water except with the Simon Baz intro and his final issue, which I thought was really good.

Again I agree with your assessment. Once "Blackest Night" was done it seemed like he said all he had to say about the Green Lantern Corps. But they kept him on through the New 52 reboot and he spent way too much time trying to convince us that Sinestro wasn't really a bad guy, just misunderstood. Johns is excellent when it comes to reviving and dusting off old villains and making them badasses but sometimes he goes overboard and tries to go the redemption route, i.e Sinestro and Black Adam.

Most of his Justice League hasn't been bad, but he certainly hasn't knocked it out of the park. Just solid, but nothing to be excited about.

He got off to a bad start on "Justice League" because
1) He had to reintroduce the team in the New 52
2) He had to introduce the team 5 years earlier and then jump to the present all while hinting at stuff that had gone before (like Jonn Jonzz being part of the
team at some point
3) He was writing for Jim Lee's excrutiatingly slow pin-up pencils (as well as the "trade" mentality) which through off the pacing IMO

I'm way behind on Aquaman. Haven't read an issue since since Reis left on the art and while I liked the first 12 or 13 issues, I haven't missed reading it.

I still think Aquaman is the best title in the New 52 but admittedly I'm getting bored with it. The arcs have been too long, too slow and he's introduced characters (i.e. The Others) that I really don't care about. He's only touched on Black Manta and Ocean Master and it's like he's out of ideas already.

[madmarva]

I really didn't care about the Others either. Felt really Smallville-like to me, kind of half done.

While I like Aquaman, some characters just don't have the depth to carry a series indefinitely. Peter David has had the most creative success with the character, but I'd argue he changed the character so much, he was Aquaman in name only by the time he was done. He was more of a sword and sorcery character, which might be the way to go with him.

I do think a really cool Aquaman movie could be made, and WB better strike before whoever has the rights to the Sub Mariner makes that movie because their origins are so very similar, a hybrid child of a human male and Atlantean female.

On JL, I've enjoyed the character moments best. It does read better in chunks, but it's not the book it should be. Justice League should be huge every issue, imo. It'll never happen because he's running Marvel TV now, but I think Jeof Loeb would be a great writer for JL. He knows how to do big well based on his run on Superman/Batman.

I like Johns' less psyco Batman, which is the biggest improvement across the board in the New52 to me.