An honest question

[CrimsonGhost]

For me, it's simple: I'm interested in what they are doing, just not as a reader.

[boynightwing]

This is some amazing and well thought out feedback. I can't thank you guys enough. It's what I've been hoping for since day one of the 52 business. I really wanted to see it from other points of view and it looks like I've finally got it.

I saw this add on DC's facebook page today that shows me what a bunch of schemers they are:
This week's Spotlight Issue is Batman #18, featuring guest-art by Andy Kubert and a back-up story starring new fan-favorite Harper Row. Find it on store shelves today

Fan favorite Harper Row?? Really? She was in two issues and I totally forgot about her. Everyone is saying she's the next Robin. Looks like everyone will be right. But why kill off Damian? I know a lot of folks here didn't like him but he grew on me. After having 2 kids die on him, I wouldn't think Batman would be hiring any more. Keeping in mind that Robin (any of them but mostly Dick and Tim) is my favorite superhero, I'm finding it hard to swallow a quick and easy replacement. So much so that I have been thinking about taking a Batman vacation. But I just took one during Batman RIP!! I don't know what to do anymore. I'd save so much money by quiting. I feel like I'm addicted to cigarettes or drugs or something lol

[bobws]

I try not to bash what i don't read, however Changing this much when you need a fan base to start a Movie Universe like Marvel is doing was just crazy.
Now you need to tie into your new comics to make them sell, when the vast majority of the people who want movies liked the old stuff.
As was said earlier "WE" are not the demographic they are shooting for. i Just read recently that one of the TV shows that got cancelled was the networks 2nd highest rated show, but it got dumped because it 's audiance was in the over 50 range, not the much needed 18-49 range. that is the mentality we are dealing with.
I'm only getting 3 DC books and they keep canceling 1 i buy and replacing it with another i might. So i don't need to give them any more money than $10 a month. it save me plenty , but my collecting heart is gone. I try to get DC archives cheap on ebay instead. Simpler times and stories, i can deal with that.

[hedrap]

It's a new age, a new business model, and certainly a new standard... or lack thereof. I think the industry will only give what is asked of them. So apparently there's not enough people beating down the doors asking for a little integrity in the process. Today heroes are a nerd fashion show with dead end stories that write themselves out before they have to be rebooted again. It's George Lucas 101. Write brain dead stories to sell toys.

The irony is the publishing arms are loss leaders. DC and Marvel haven't turned a profit since the mid-90's. I spent a considerable amount of time charting all available numbers on spreadsheets, and the industry is serving a smaller and smaller niche at a higher price, which stopped being pegged to inflation in the late 80's. It's all about ancillary dollars and other revenue streams.

Marvel didn't sell to Disney because it was a golden dream. They sold because financially they hit a brick wall. If every movie didn't perform at Iron Man levels, it put more and more of the company at risk because they had to put up the trademarks as collateral to secure the loan. So IM's big theatrical success was erased by Incredible Hulk, (which actually did worse than the first Hulk), and Cap and Thor broke even. In the end, they were shifting money to pay back the loans. Now couple all of that with a publishing division that made zero growth after a decade of big movie releases.

You can change the model to make it profitable, but the industry keeps a lot of companies employed. Just consider the impact to printing and UPS delivery if printed books dropped to once a month. The industry would crater.

[CrimsonGhost]

But why kill off Damian?

According to Morrison, that was always the plan.

[Earth 2 Chris]

DAMIEN WAYNE...ANGRY YOUTH...BORN TO DIE...


Chris

[MIB41]

The irony is the publishing arms are loss leaders. DC and Marvel haven't turned a profit since the mid-90's.
Marvel didn't sell to Disney because it was a golden dream. They sold because financially they hit a brick wall. If every movie didn't perform at Iron Man levels, it put more and more of the company at risk because they had to put up the trademarks as collateral to secure the loan. So IM's big theatrical success was erased by Incredible Hulk, (which actually did worse than the first Hulk), and Cap and Thor broke even. In the end, they were shifting money to pay back the loans. Now couple all of that with a publishing division that made zero growth after a decade of big movie releases.

Comics are very much a licensed based machine. They exist only to sell movies and merchandise. They push the action figures, games, and various lines because that is what generates income. Without a doubt if Marvel had to solely rely on the profitability of it's comics to keep it's head above water, they would have died out long ago. And the industry wasn't remotely as lucrative back in the late 60's and 70's as it is today. Sure they had plenty of merchandise in those days. But the real cash cow today is film. And with the printing industry dying a slow death, pretty soon comics will have to evolve from it, if they wish to continue.

[hedrap]

Comics are very much a licensed based machine. They exist only to sell movies and merchandise. They push the action figures, games, and various lines because that is what generates income. Without a doubt if Marvel had to solely rely on the profitability of it's comics to keep it's head above water, they would have died out long ago. And the industry wasn't remotely as lucrative back in the late 60's and 70's as it is today. Sure they had plenty of merchandise in those days. But the real cash cow today is film. And with the printing industry dying a slow death, pretty soon comics will have to evolve from it, if they wish to continue.

I gamed the scenario out, and the the biggest hangup Marvel/DC have is marketshare. They could be profitable if they rolled back titles to a very core few, but then they wouldn't be able to boast owning what % of the market. It would force them to truly rely on sales and not shelfspace, which is apparently to great a risk. It's a double-edged sword, but they choose to live it.

[VintageMike]

I have a question. If everyone hates the New 52 so much, then why is everyone so interested in what they're doing? If you hate it or boycott it, then why feel the need to talk about it? If you really hate it, why make yourself so angry over what they are doing?

For example, I used to love Smallville. Somewhere around season five the show just stopped being enjoyable for me. Yet I still kept watching a while longer. Then my friends and family started to worry about how angry the show made me. I used the F word a lot. So I decided to just walk away from it. I felt a lot better.

I haven't been the biggest fan of anything Marvel for the past five or six years (movies excepted as I love the Marvel movies). I just kind of stopped collecting and caring. They seem to start over with #1's every 6 months or so but I still find the universe too complicated to jump in to. However, I don't find the need to bash them at every given opportunity. On that note, does anyone here read Marvel Comics? Have they fallen off the radar? Is it better to fall off the radar or have people still talk about you?

To the original question it's talked about, because whatever they do with the characters many of us still have a strong fondness for them. So even though say Superman fans may not like the current direction of the character they are still Supes fans and are passionate about the character. As far as "walking away" the problem for me is this..even thought I don't love everything being done now, I love my trip to the comic store every week. I love reading my new books over the weekend and reading the latest and new adventure of these characters. I am a strong supporter/collector of back issues but it's one thing they can't give you. Even if you haven't read a particular story before you know the future of the timelime. In some cases where I absolutely no longer like the book, I will drop it. The difference is for me I pick a many different books, so I always have something new. For those that only read a few things, the anger is there because they want something to read/support but that something isn't there. Finally I also don't walk away because I don't want to miss anything that might be good. One of the best titles going right now is All-New X-Men and really it's genius: they get to do something "fresh" but utilize classic versions of characters at the same time.

[Figuremod73]

I'm glad theres reprints available because todays DC and Marvel doesnt appeal to me. I just feel they could release a little something for the older fans every month.

I'm sure there is also many younger people getting ahold of DC's from the silver and bronze age and wondering why are modern books not as good.

Personally, I feel that WB has blotched up a really good chance to make some really, really good films and they really wouldnt have had to make any major changes to any of the major characters.

[huedell]

For me, it's simple: I'm interested in what they are doing, just not as a reader.

16 posts in, to find the sweet-spot explanation for me. ^^^^^^

And to add to that... discussing/debating the stuff is in lieu of having to READ the stuff. yeah, and it's MUCH more entertaining/satisfying. At least you can imbue and address your own "fantasy EIC" ideas into it... heck knows you're not gonna see it in the new comics.

[ctc]

>the biggest hangup Marvel/DC have is marketshare

Yup; although not quite in the way you describe. (That’s another problem....) As soon as a company goes public, they have shareholders to appease. That’s been a big problem for the Big Two-ish for decades. Those shareholders want to see returns, increasing returns.... otherwise they pull up stakes. That gives a lot of control to the executives, and takes it away from the producers and editors. So the interest moves away from the stories and onto what makes money. Then you get tie-ins, favourite characters being shoehorned into book after book after book, remakes to keep the characters hip and relevant. (As a 40 year old ad exec sees things anyhoo. “Are kids still into EXTREME things...?”)

Now, this isn’t new either; but there used to be fewer steps between the folks in the trenches and the folks calling the shots. As Marvel and DC were bought by bigger companies it added layers of management, which slows down reaction time and (as anyone who’s ever worked for a big company knows) dilutes ideas and intent.

>Their is no master plan.

I bet there is, but it keeps getting rearranged by folks way up on high.

>Comics are very much a licensed based machine.

The Big Two-ish are. I think one of the reasons there was such an upswing for independents the last decade was because the current generation of fans wanted more from their stories; and the “mainstream” stuff couldn’t provide. The indies can ‘cos they’re generally the product of one or two people; fewer hands in the pot, fewer folks adding their take. It allows for a more natural, paced story that can have all sorts of consequence and permanence. Pretty much the opposite of how “mainstream” books work.

*The irony being; most of the really popular and lasting superhero stories came about when one person was given control for a stretch of time. Claremont on the X-Men, Wolfman on the OTHER X-Men: the Teen Titans, Miller on Daredevil, Gaiman on Sandman....

>the industry is serving a smaller and smaller niche at a higher price,

THAT’S the problem the Big Two-ish seem reluctant, or unable to address; leading to:

>then they wouldn't be able to boast owning what % of the market

We were discussing how the Big Two-ish have been passing the same fan base between themselves for a while; and that this is the source of the annual reboot, ‘cos it provides a temporary migration of said fan group back to the rebooting publisher’s camp.

What SHOULD have happened, according to the eternal fan cycle; is a renewal in the 90's. The kids of the 70's became the older fans of the 80's, and as they got bored, old, dead or senile and moved on a NEW crop of fans SHOULD have come in. But they didn’t. The Big Two-ish kept riding the wave of the 80's, becoming increasingly beholden to the “comic shop crowd.” The result was a narrowing of subject matter, rampant recycling of ideas and stories catering more and more to those already initiated. There was no room for newbies, nothing to attract them, nothing to attract someone not already part of the superhero fan clan, no kernels of new ideas that would become the cornerstones of the next generation of stories.... just an endless cycle of gimmicks, rehashed storylines (“OH NO! Jean Grey is dead AGAIN!”) and the same old handful of celebrity artists. (And occasionally writers.) And because of that they lost a whole generation of readers, who found other comics to read. (‘Cos kids will ALWAYS read comics, even if it’s on a screen.)

I suspect that’s one reason you hear so much about Archie any more. They’re a sizable share of the industry again. They’re also one of the lines that has the capacity to pull in new, young readers; which is what the Big Two-ish SHOULD be doing, if they want to prosper. (Or survive.) That’s why I’m okay with not being their target audience any more. Thing is; they’re trying to pull in a new audience by doing the same old. DC announced that the target crowd for 52 was gonna be males, 14 to 25. In other words, the comic shop crowd from the 80's. The same folks who’ve been leaving in droves since the 90's. (And most of them were speculators.)

Don C.

[hedrap]

Don - We're in the same realm on this.

Re: Public companies. I think your definition fits Marvel pre-Disney. Aftet the purchase, Iger has to answer for his expenditures and shareholders really don't dig into the publishing expenses because it's now a much smaller part of the larger company sum. Plus, Iger lucked out with Avengers so no one is going to question him at this point. As for DC, since they technically bought WB, not vice-versa, they've been able to hide their costs from day one.

I think Marvel has a bigger idea/plan than DC, whose is in constant spin cycle.

Re: Independent publishers. I don't know. Are we talking about DH and IDW? That's a different model. I know a number of the smaller companies are trying to follow the Platinum model of publishing just for the storybards and copyrights to pimp to the studios.

What SHOULD have happened, according to the eternal fan cycle; is a renewal in the 90's. The kids of the 70's became the older fans of the 80's, and as they got bored, old, dead or senile and moved on a NEW crop of fans SHOULD have come in. But they didn’t. The Big Two-ish kept riding the wave of the 80's, becoming increasingly beholden to the “comic shop crowd.” The result was a narrowing of subject matter, rampant recycling of ideas and stories catering more and more to those already initiated. There was no room for newbies, nothing to attract them, nothing to attract someone not already part of the superhero fan clan, no kernels of new ideas that would become the cornerstones of the next generation of stories

The 90's was the issue. I think you had a culmination of events - Sega and Super NES, the internets, direct sale VHS, CD burners, and the explosion of toy collecting. That's all the same demo being split for the same amount of dollars, and this is before you get into any type of nightlife.

So the speculator market erupts just as comics no longer peg to inflation. Prices go insane, but are considered a worthwhile investment because printings are still in control. Then, from X-Men 1 to Image to Death of Superman, the industry goes batcrap crazy and reprints its value out of existence. Speculators see no value and bail on the market around '94/'95. Industry craters in '97 and still hasn't recovered.

[ctc]

>I think Marvel has a bigger idea/plan than DC, whose is in constant spin cycle

Maybe. I think Marvel has the advantage that their core "heroes with problems" formula.... from WAY back in the day... better serves a general audience. DC characters are mostly from way back when you didn't need any kind of structure, story or plausibility for your characters. It makes them more mythical, more iconic, but also a lot harder to relate to. AND to write for. So it looks like Marvel has more of a clue, but it's because they're juggling fewer elements conceptually, behind the scenes. Also, Marvel went public a while back AS Marvel.... so there were fewer steps between the decision makers and the production teams. DC's been par of a megalithic corporate juggernaut a lot longer.

>Are we talking about DH and IDW?

Nah; I mean places like Mu Press, Thoughts and Images, A/V.... companies that are essentially run by the same person or persons producing the actual comics. Or companies like Kitchen Sink or Fantagraphics who leave the producers alone. DH and IDW are essentially Marvel and DC, smaller scale, back before becoming part of a big conglomerate.

>That's all the same demo being split for the same amount of dollars

People like to blame video games for the decline of comics, but I don't think that's the cause. WE were the video game generation, the home video generation, the MTV generation.... and comics EXPLODED for us. I thik the problem for comics was that the Big Two-ish got irrelevant by catering too much to that older crowd, and as they moved on nobody else moved in. Case in point; with all the consumer electronics that have been available the last decade or so, comics exploded again. Different kind of explosion; but I can walk into any book store and see just as many comics today as were present in comic shops back in the 80's. So it looks to us like there's a contraction because; like the publishers, we're too caught up in the old way of thinking. Hell; check out the seemingly endless variety and number of online comics out there. The internet boom ushered in a rennaisance, instead of squelching it like so many old guard feel. (Emeshed in a certain irony, like the comic shop/comic book thing; given how many online comics use the newspaper comic format.... a format considered on it's last legs by many.)

That all goes back to why I think we, the oldster fans NEED to accept some of the blame for the implosion of the Big Two-ish. WE perpetualte the old ideas just as much as they do. WE poo poo anything new and different, just like they do. WE'RE just as caught up in inertia as they are. What's needed isn't a RETURN to anything; it's the creation of something new. Did the 70's X-Men need a return to the earliest "GRRR! Magneto SMASH!" way of doing things to take off? Did the 80's Titans need a return to the groovy ol' "Wonder chick" days to take off? Did Batman need to go back to the 50's era "Joker's Big Boner?" style to take off? No, and those series were all better for it. Thing was, they all found an accepting audience; us, back when we were kids. THAT'S the key; story AND audience. But the audience needs to lighten up and let the story happen. We can't do that any more. We're too caught up in the old; we want the kick we got as kids but we don't realize a lot of that was novelty. So we ruminate on the trappings of those days without getting the pow. Like the publishers, who keep mining the popular eras over and over.... and in doing so keep doing the same stuff over and over.... never realizing that THIS is what's killing them.

>Prices go insane, but are considered a worthwhile investment because printings are still in control.

Yeah. Part of that was the shift from news stands to comic shops. Better printing, better paper, better colour separations.... higher prices; but I think they saw the independents of the day charging higher prices and figured they could too.... IF they made the jump to comic shops. (Plus; no returns, like the news stands.)

>Then, from X-Men 1 to Image to Death of Superman, the industry goes batcrap crazy

....that's a word....

>and reprints its value out of existence.

....reprints, reissues, gimmicks, etc. The speculators couldn't keep up with every book getting twenty different covers, and around the "Death of Superman" era someone started noticing that if EVERYBODY bought ten copies and put them away the book would NEVER be worth anything.

>Industry craters in '97 and still hasn't recovered

As an independent/import/underground guy I'd say it recovered brilliantly. There was a HUGE change in attitude, from comics as collectible to comic as readable.... since reprints and compilations became the thing to do. That's AWESOME because it puts the onus back on the content of the book, and not the names attached or the percieved value. THAT'S what the industry needed; readers. And the explosion of imports and independents, especially given their exposure in book stores instead of sequestering in comic shops meant a new audience could get at them, which meant an expansion of topics, which was great for the industry. (Would we have seen a "Walking Dead" tv show back in the day, if the comic hadn't been reprinted and sold in book stores? How much of the recent revisiting fairty tales happened because comics like "Fable" got so much good press? Is it possible that so many superhero movies got made 'cos of the popularity of the Japanese stuff, and execs can't tell the difference?)

Don C.

[Random Axe]

I'm personally at the acceptance stage. I now realize these books and concepts are no longer aimed at me, nor do they appeal to me. I am done with DC and Marvel, and I'm okay with that. I sincerely hope this new generation of readers finds characters they can latch onto and capture the magic of youth as I once did. I've seen over the last few years a lack of substance and depth to both characters and stories, so I don't know how a new reader can become emotionally or otherwise involved with the characters, but I'm hopeful they do. I feel a little sad for these kids who will never get to experience Aquaman underoos or have the sense of wonder we did when Super Friends came on Saturday mornings. I suppose they will live instead through their facebook pages and twitter accounts.