An honest question

[boynightwing]

I have a question. If everyone hates the New 52 so much, then why is everyone so interested in what they're doing? If you hate it or boycott it, then why feel the need to talk about it? If you really hate it, why make yourself so angry over what they are doing?

For example, I used to love Smallville. Somewhere around season five the show just stopped being enjoyable for me. Yet I still kept watching a while longer. Then my friends and family started to worry about how angry the show made me. I used the F word a lot. So I decided to just walk away from it. I felt a lot better.

I haven't been the biggest fan of anything Marvel for the past five or six years (movies excepted as I love the Marvel movies). I just kind of stopped collecting and caring. They seem to start over with #1's every 6 months or so but I still find the universe too complicated to jump in to. However, I don't find the need to bash them at every given opportunity. On that note, does anyone here read Marvel Comics? Have they fallen off the radar? Is it better to fall off the radar or have people still talk about you?

[palitoy]

I guess because DC removed the option to enjoy DC comics outside of the new 52. It's kind of a new coke situation.

Smallville was only one source of Superman related programming, whereas now, all Superman books are in new continuity.

I got turned off at one of the Crisises, can't remember which one. So I can't really squawk too much these days but if you had 10 or so DC titles in your pull lists, I guess it's kind of jarring how this was done.

[Earth 2 Chris]

I honestly dropped out about 3 years before the New 52 began, because I could see the direction DC was headed. One reason I am vocal about my dislike of 95% of what DC is doing, is because I invested heavily in the characters, and I feel they are being done a great disservice. And as Brian points out, it's the only game in town, other than reprint TPBs.

Overall I feel like WB took a very corporate stance with the properties, trying to make them appeal soley to a younger audience who really has no interest in buying comic books, while alienating the core older audience that did (and of course they abandoned the children's market years ago). The only reason this experiment has seemingly worked is because too many fans refuse to just walk away and continue to support something they dislike.

I try to keep in mind that some people like the new stuff, and control my disdain. But honestly, most of us Mego guys are close to 40 or well over, so chances are, this stuff just isn't our cup of tea, in general. So if you want positive discussion on books with all of these wholesale changes, you'll probably have to look elsewhere.

Chris

[EMCE Hammer]

I honestly dropped out about 3 years before the New 52 began, because I could see the direction DC was headed. One reason I am vocal about my dislike of 95% of what DC is doing, is because I invested heavily in the characters, and I feel they are being done a great disservice. And as Brian points out, it's the only game in town, other than reprint TPBs.

Overall I feel like WB took a very corporate stance with the properties, trying to make them appeal soley to a younger audience who really has no interest in buying comic books, while alienating the core older audience that did (and of course they abandoned the children's market years ago). The only reason this experiment has seemingly worked is because too many fans refuse to just walk away and continue to support something they dislike.

I try to keep in mind that some people like the new stuff, and control my disdain. But honestly, most of us Mego guys are close to 40 or well over, so chances are, this stuff just isn't our cup of tea, in general. So if you want positive discussion on books with all of these wholesale changes, you'll probably have to look elsewhere.

Chris

That says it as well as I could. I just buy kiddie books now when I find them suitable. Otherwise DC is pretty dead to me. I'm all rebooty/gritty/updated out.

[boynightwing]

I like the New Coke analogy. That makes sense to me.

I certainly don't think that everything DC does is gold either. The 52 ruined Justice League, Teen Titans, Tim Drake, Superman, Superboy, and a number of other things for me. I don't feel like it's the universe I grew up in. I long for said universe much like the rest of you. I found a few series I could still follow and I do. Those being Wonder Woman, Flash (but I must be clear that I am a Wally West fan), Aquaman, Huntress and Power Girl, and some assorted Bat titles like Batman Beyond. I am aware that the days of me spending loads of money on comics are behind me. I can thank DC for that I guess. (see? DC doesn't walk on water for me either). I just try to stay positive as best I can to enjoy a hobby I've had since about 1986. I started rereading my collection which has been fun.

I'm finding that what I'm looking for no longer comes from the big two. Image has some great stuff coming out lately. Which is a statement I thought I'd never hear myself make. Check out Saga and Danger Club. Kill Shakespear is pretty awesome. IDW is doing some interesting things too but I'm finding that they are spreading too thin. I don't need 5 Joe titles a month. Or Transformers.

[ctc]

>why is everyone so interested in what they're doing?

Inertia.

>I don't feel like it's the universe I grew up in. I long for said universe much like the rest of you.

Kinda like that. It’s NOT the universe you knew.... Hell; given how often mainstream comics reboot the universe you KNEW isn’t the universe you knew.... not really. Folks are more forgiving as kids.

>I feel like WB took a very corporate stance with the properties, trying to make them appeal soley to a younger audience

They did; and I think this is one of the great disappointments we must all deal with in life: no longer being a target market. That’s not new either; look at the Golden age to Silver age transformation. Exactly the sort of thing DC’s doing with the 52.... or Flash Point.... or Final Crisis.... They’ve ALWAYS been corporate properties, but when they’re in tune with the zeitgeist of YOUR age it doesn’t feel that way.

What freaks people out about stuff like this isn’t the books themselves; it’s that they present an undeniable example that “the times, they be a’changin” and that we’re all getting older, and that as we get older the youth crazed universe that loved us a few decades ago doesn’t care so much now. You’re not raging against the Big Two-ish raping your childhood, or then durned teenagers with their rudeness and poor work ethic, or all that crap that’s on tv any more; not like back in MY day.... you’re raging at your own obsolescence. That you’re not the spry youngster with unlimited potential that you still feel you are. You’re raging that the passage of time has presented you with new obligations, closed off options, added new complications.... complications them duned kids don’t have. Why; they have NO IDEA how good they have it! And they just SQUANDER it all! Weak, lazy! Back in MY day we worked! We had dreams, and goals, and REAL values! And now they want to INVADE MY comics?!?! Ruin MY Batman with their vulgar talk, and scritchy art?!?! HOW DARE THEY! Take away one of my refuges from THEM?!?!? Bah! And those publishers; willing to let it happen just for a buck?!?! WORST of the bunch!

That’s why 00's DC crippling Arsenal is committing a travesty against the nobility and spirit of the superhero; whereas 60's DC doing the exact same thing to Lighting Lad is just good storytelling. It’s also why folks no longer happy with the books can’t let go. There’s a line in the sand to be drawn; a position to be held against the deterioration of society. Plus, peeking in on the degradation and collapse provides a guilty pleasure, reinforcing the belief that it’s all horrible. (Hence why stuff is poo poo’d well in advance of actually coming out.)

Don C.

[Earth 2 Chris]

They did; and I think this is one of the great disappointments we must all deal with in life: no longer being a target market. That’s not new either; look at the Golden age to Silver age transformation. Exactly the sort of thing DC’s doing with the 52.... or Flash Point.... or Final Crisis.... They’ve ALWAYS been corporate properties, but when they’re in tune with the zeitgeist of YOUR age it doesn’t feel that way.

To a point, but this is the first time in DC's publishing history that they have TOTALLY disregarded their past like this. Sure, Flash was rebooted in 1956 with only a comic cover to reference the old Flash, but Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman continued on, with minor tweakings to their backstories as time wore on. And of course eventually DC completely embraced their past publishing with the Earth-Two concept. The outspoken fans of their day, the Jerry Bails and Roy Thomas were for the most part happy with the "New" DC, especially when their loyalty was rewarded with the JSA's eventual revival.

Nowadays, comparatively, we get the middle finger. When fans complain about "where's Wally West"?, many of the DC creators make snarky comments, belittling their own fanbase. A LONG way removed from the Julius Schwartz of old. I think that's part of the reason so many of us feel disenfranchised by the "New" DC. It's that corporate attitude of "this is what we got. If you don't like it, blow off".

Chris

Chris

[ctc]

>To a point, but this is the first time in DC's publishing history that they have TOTALLY disregarded their past like this.

I think for me this is the big sticking point. I don’t think it is the first time; there were all sorts of changes made over the years.... stuff like Luthor being a bitter bald dude as opposed to generic criminal mastermind (with luxurious locks, by the by) or the Joker dying and coming back more often than Jean Grey, or all the retrofitting that went on with Superman; mostly from the radio show. I think the biggest difference is the fans, who are a LOT more engaged than the ones of yesteryear. Partly ‘cos they’re reading longer, partly ‘cos of the 80's when comic fan culture (and marketing to them) really got organized.

It became a mixed blessing because a more involved and mature audience let you do new kinds of stories, which helped to keep things moving.... but it also created new expectations. Folks who saw the story of a Batman or Superman as more of a solid, event based story rather than a bunch of stuff that happened every month and was occasionally “NOT a dream! NOT an imaginary story!” get used to that kind of thing. But that’s where the corporateness complicates stuff. Above and beyond anything else, Batman, Superman et al are brands; and as such you can’t normally go too far afield with them. Not without an okay from marketing, anyhoo. Hence why it’s a big deal to actually change stuff: it requires a rebranding.

And that puts severe limits on the writers, especially in the continuing story department. Eventually you hit the wall you can’t pass. IS Bruce Wayne REALLY dead? No. Will Superman give up the cape FOR GOOD? No. They can’t. But the reader need it to FEEL like they can, otherwise the story becomes pointless. And after two, three, four decades of seeing this sort of thing it gets harder to convince yourself that MAYBE this time it’s real. Hence why folks lose interest. (Or have their interest diminished.) And eventually the character falls out of favour in general; not just with the older fans, but with potential newer ones. A character serving in WW1 doesn’t have the same gravitas for an audience 100 years later.

So you HAVE to rebrand. Sometimes it’s small; WW1 becomes the Gulf War. Sometimes it’s big; and the guy with the magic ring becomes a Lensman-esque space cop. That’s what the Silver Age was, or the original Crisis. Rebrandings. So was the GoGo Checks era, but that one was quieter. So was the one that they planned in the 70's; before the implosion. This sort of thing happens a lot. I think the biggest problem nowadays is that it happens a lot AND it’s always hyped.

>The outspoken fans of their day, the Jerry Bails and Roy Thomas were for the most part happy with the "New" DC

....but I think they ALLOWED themselves to be happy with it. Or at least didn’t go for the juggular right away. People today react as soon as something’s announced; and I think that’s part of the problem ‘cos it sends erroneous feedback to the company. People seldom respond when they think things are good; so you only hear the negative, so rather than let a reboot play out normally they see the discontent and plan a new one almost right away. (They were hyping 52 DURING the reboot of the time fer horque’s sake!) So while DC is guilty of over sensitivity and serious knee jerk reactions; the fans bear some of the blame as well. And it’s because of this that I think all the nerd rage is a problem; that it hurts the fans more than if they just bowed out, stopped buying the books and moved on.

>especially when their loyalty was rewarded with the JSA's eventual revival

I think that would have happened anyway. The idea of “put all our big names together” is so obvious as to be inevitable. Every superhero company does it eventually.

>Nowadays, comparatively, we get the middle finger. When fans complain about "where's Wally West"?, many of the DC creators make snarky comments, belittling their own fanbase.

Yeah; I have noticed more sensitivity amongst the companies; although I think you could see the beginnings of that in the 90's. I can only imagine what these guys are working under though; NOTHING they do is EVER gonna please a lot of their audience, and hoo boy are they gonna hear about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzyd91NFx-Y

Not that this excuses some of the assanine things these folks have said, but I think it does kind of explain it. Comic book folks have always been a touchy lot. (I’m thinkin’ of some of the things guys like Ditko, Moore, Chakyn, or Byrne have said over the years....)

Don C.

[BlackKnight]

I was Spending like 50 Bucks a Month on DC Titles Before the New 52 ...., and Blackest Night was the Greatest Idea I Ever Read in 27+ Years of Me Reading Books. I was Full Balls In Every Month.

I was Never a Real Big Marvel Reader ...., But Loved the New X-Force Book ..., and X-Men... But they Killed Night Crawler, Killed Cable (now Back) Destroyed the New X-Force, Recreated them with Others,... And Over All, Destroy'ed My X-Men.

I was Following Hulk ..., But Lost Interest. I think Too Much Red Hulk Killed it for me ..., or something. I didn't like the Last Arc where Ever it was, and Bailed.

I really liked Dark Avengers..., It's Unfourtunate that the Premature Death of Ares and Then the Dismantle of the Team Happened far Quicker than it shoulda ...

In the End..., All Marvel "Event" Yearly BS Adventures Just seem to go No Where, and Left me as "Meh" At best ..., So I stopped reading.

I tried a Bunch of the New 52 ...
Sure on Paper ... Capullo, Booth, Lee, Reis , Jurgens ..., and So Forth Sound Fantastic. But I just can't Get Past the Re-Designs, and New Directions of Whatever. And I am a Huge Fan of Jim Lee ..., all up untill The Launch of the New 52 ... I think Aquaman's about the Best Book ..., But I still don't seem to care Enough to Read it, Perhaps that will Change. I hate Sinestro Being a Green Lantern with Hal as his Beeotch so Damn Much ..., It Killed all the Green Lantern Books for Me Over a Year ago.

Books Like Booster Gold with Jurgens , and Sercret Six, were Just Destroyed in the New Universe..., and How the Hell do you Change Costumes like Deadshot and Deathstroke ? ... Unbelievable.

I was Such A Huge Fan of Modern Comics Untill the New 52 . Ask Anyone.
Now ..., I only seem to Click on the Threads Here ..., If I think there's a Chance Patrick Duffy is Gonna Show Up in a Shower Scene, and Tell Us all, ... ''Gottcha Beeotch, ... It was all a Dream" .

I can't Stand The Fact that Warner Bros, Owns the Movie Rights to DC Properites either. The Studio Hasn't Given DC Fans Anything Worth a Crap in Over 30Years, Outside of a Couple of ok Movies with Re-inventing Characters. It Almost Makes me wanna Cry, Just thinking about it.

[ozcollector1992]

Ok when it comes to Smallville EVERYONE said they hated it up to season 5 but, what they didn't realize was from season 6 on it got progressively better they just had to build the groundwork in the earlier seasons. I agree they weren't the best and I agree if you didn't like it don't watch it. the target audience was teens like me not adults. sorry for the rant but so sick of people bashing Smallville, it was our generations superman.

[boynightwing]

Ok when it comes to Smallville EVERYONE said they hated it up to season 5 but, what they didn't realize was from season 6 on it got progressively better they just had to build the groundwork in the earlier seasons. I agree they weren't the best and I agree if you didn't like it don't watch it. the target audience was teens like me not adults. sorry for the rant but so sick of people bashing Smallville, it was our generations superman.

I wouldn't think of bashing Smallville or think bad of you for liking it. I only know that after season 4 I stopped enjoying it so I had to stop watching. I get mad when my girlfriends brother bashes the Chris Reeve Superman movies as being cheesy and bad. He was born in 94 so he didn't see them as a kid like I did. He only saw them because I made him watch them with me. I think he only now sort of see's what I like about them.

[thunderbolt]

Why? For me I genuinely like the characters a lot, grew up with them and find it sort of nuts what DC is doing to them. I have my Archives and all, but I really don't like putting any money in the pockets of WB after the strip mining and clear cutting of the DCU.

[The Toyroom]

I tried...really, I tried to like the New 52. I didn't see a reason for it or the redesigns but I gave it a shot anyway. Prior to the reboot I was probably buying anywhere from 6-10 DC comics a week, so what's that between $18 and $30...not to mention several Marvel and/or independents per week to round it off.

So when the New 52 began I started off with:

Justice League
Aquaman
Batman
Wonder Woman
The Fury of Firestorm
Justice League International
Batgirl
Batwoman
Detective Comics
Action Comics
Superman
Green Lantern
Legion of Super-Heroes
Legion Lost
All-Star Western
Animal Man
Swamp Thing
Demon Knights
I, Vampire
Justice League Dark
Frankenstein, Agent of SHADE

With Wave 2 I added:

Earth-2
G.I. Combat
Worlds' Finest
Dial H for Hero

Wave 3:

Sword of Sorcery


Now the majority of these titles of Wave 1 didn't get past two issues with me with the exception of 6 books. For Wave 2 I stuck with them for about 6 issues. Wave 3 was done in two issues.

As it stands today, I am currently buying Justice League, Aquaman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern since the reboot. However I think I am done with Batman after the last two lackluster arcs by Scott Snyder (Court of Owls and Death of The Family which really didn't have the payoff that was hyped). Green Lantern will be dumped when Geoff Johns leaves the book. I just dumped All-Star Western last month. I started buying Firestorm again (after leaving with issue #2) once Dan Jurgens came on board but now that the book is cancelled that will be short lived.

So very soon my DC monthly purchases will more than likely consist of Justice League, Aquaman and Wonder Woman (not counting any mini-series along the way). WOW...When you break it down that way it's very sad that I was a devoted DC fan for about 40 years and can no longer find titles about the characters I love that I find enjoyable. I stuck with the company thru a lot of modern reboots from Crisis on Infinite Earths to Zero Hour to Infinite Crisis to Final Crisis to Flashpoint and now this and I just don't have it in me anymore to keep laying down cash for piles of paper that I no longer find interesting just in an effort to keep the collection going and "collect 'em all". I'd rather buy trade paperbacks of storylines I loved and can enjoy again and again without fear of DC destroying them any further than they already have.

[hedrap]

I think the bashfest breaks down into two camps

1. DC does this every decade.

2. Everyone has played fantasy EIC about rebooting the Big Two, but with DC in particular because they've always been a mess.

For me, it's because I know the edict didn't come from Dido and Lee, but from WB. The decision was made that the best way to circumvent fanboy hostility for not holding to canon when adapting comics to film, was to erase their bible.

It became really annoying to read or hear Dido and Lee claim this was a plan on their part, that it was mapped out, that Lee designed Superman, when articles in the LA Times, WSJ, etc showed otherwise. The timeline for Snyder's Man Of Steel alone shows that if Lee did come up with the design, it was for the movie first and not the book.

DC is first and foremost an IP library. They only publish to retain and create new trademarks and copyrights. That's why WB is willing to sell off its Time Mag division, which has wider circulation, and not it's comics division.

Just look at the latest surprise-surprise. Within a week of word breaking that the JLA movie is dead and possibly replaced by a Nolan/Snyder co-production of World's Finest, DC announces it's New 52 title is, what?

They lie. They lie. They lie. Their is no master plan. It's the tail wagging the dog, so I won't support it.

If Dido was honest and said DC was now a lab test for film/tv adaptations, I'd be a lot more interested.

[MIB41]

I came from an era when the industry took pride in continuity. Hell you got your name mentioned in print (in the letters section) when you caught something that didn't add up, whether it was in the illustration or the story itself. There was a real investment in the characters. It meant something to follow these heroes. These days it's about rebooting, reinventing, and forgetting what came before. And I guess somewhere along the way readers got happy with that disconnect and that's why it's so rampant today. I think when people feel there is little to no respect for it's characters, it's because no one backs off to buy the next gimmick when they p*ss on them. It's a new age, a new business model, and certainly a new standard... or lack thereof. I think the industry will only give what is asked of them. So apparently there's not enough people beating down the doors asking for a little integrity in the process. Today heroes are a nerd fashion show with dead end stories that write themselves out before they have to be rebooted again. It's George Lucas 101. Write brain dead stories to sell toys.