Depressing Wonder Woman spoilers.

[Werewolf]

I keep thinking about those original pictures of Wonder Woman from the 40's and 50's with all the bondage and such.

Cringeworthy drawings like that are unfortunately not uncommon for the era. It's not just WW either. As mentioned earlier, racist and sexist imagery were a severe cultural problem of the time.

What is so frustrating and why I debated to myself posting this thread and why I requested please do not post nasty pics, is WW threads are often singled out and dumped on. You don't feel welcome and it doesn't encourage you to discuss your favorite comic heroes when you know your thread is going to get dumped on.

Sometimes you just want to commiserate and chat with other comic fans without having the worry in the back of your head that your thread is going to get dumped on and flooded with intentionally derogatory and baiting images. Mocking a topic is not a discussion. It's beyond frustrating and tiresome. You'd expect it on other fan sites where people are always gleefully going at each other, but not here.

[boynightwing]

I know what you mean. A number of years ago I got an old comic. Detective Comics #371 from 1968. I thought it was the coolest thing ever for someone to give me. It was old, and it had Batgirl on the cover and she's a favorite of mine.

I posted a picture of it on a forum (not the museum) for friends of mine to see. A "look what I got" kind of thread. It descended in to chaos and they had to lock the whole thread because of some of the comments...

[MegoSteve]

What is so frustrating and why I debated to myself posting this thread and why I requested please do not post nasty pics, is WW threads are often singled out and dumped on. You don't feel welcome and it doesn't encourage you to discuss your favorite comic heroes when you know your thread is going to get dumped on.

I can commiserate, having suffered through what they've done to Superman, but I don't think it's fair for you to try to set rules of conduct in a thread you start. I don't think anyone's dumping on you or your opinion... they are disagreeing politely. What's the point of having a discussion if you aren't willing to tolerate disagreement? It just seems to me that there's room for both sides here, especially since no one is calling names or flying off the handle.

Like I said before, I totally agree with you. I hate what DC is doing to their characters, enough that I've stopped buying any new comics from them.

[Werewolf]

but I don't think it's fair for you to try to set rules of conduct in a thread you start.

I not asking anyone to agree with me. Boynightwing and myself politely disagreed. I only politely requested please no nasty pics posted in the thread. Since WW threads tend to inevitablely be flooded with intentionally derogatory images.

Any old spanking or bondage drawing that can be found will be dug up in posted time and time again if someone dares to post a WW topic. Again, it was a cultural problem of the era. But you don't see me and will not see me posting baiting images or insulting other heroes in their threads.

[samurainoir]

C'mon, let's not kid ourselves about who is baiting who here!

And can anyone honestly say that it's not really obvious how much love I have for the character of Wonder Woman? I find something to like in ALL her incarnations... even that weirdo Cathy Lee Crosby movie.

My REAL point being... the only constant is that the character changes. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. If comics depresses you... then it's probably a good thing to go away and do something that doesn't get you down (like finding comics you actually like and sharing that in an open forum).

Even the argument made in the article are made of straw... SURE Superman and Batman's origins change and shift when it comes to the details. Nothing here has changed in this statement... Wonder Woman comes to Man's World to change hearts and minds after encountering a man for the first time, Steve Trevor.

The Amazons have never been consistently portrayed... just like the Kryptonians or even Joe Chill. Superman is rocketed to earth from a dying planet and fights for Truth and Justice. In some versions, they are a race of Superman, in others it's a planet of scientists and goofy creatures, then you have the cold sterile world seen in Superman the movie or the even colder and artificial world of birthing Matrices... where he's actually "birthed" on Earth. How many versions of Joe Chill have we seen? Or the Waynes? In the Keaton movies, it's actually Joker that kills his parents! I don't think Joe Chill is even in the current incarnation of the origin is it?

You know what I really like best about this new incarnation? The return of Steve Trevor. I think the character has lost a bit of something since Steve was written out, and we've seen in the recent animated movie that he can be portrayed in way that isn't silly (Nathan Fillion did a bang up job with the voice acting). I'm honestly really baffled by the fear that fans have of sexuality in Wonder Woman's comics. I'm not just talking about wukka-wukka making whoopie... base relationship type stuff with a partner/man/woman. Like Superman and Lois, or Batman and Catwoman/Talia/Vicky Vale etc. It really has set up this oddball virgin/***** dichotomy when it comes to the character, that is far and away counter to the current notions of Feminism.

The past few decades of relationships have made Bruce and Clark much more complex characters than Diana in that respect.

[samurainoir]

I keep thinking about those original pictures of Wonder Woman from the 40's and 50's with all the bondage and such. That was how she was originally intended to be. Which is kind of sad.

It's all relative though... to William Moulton Marston, there was nothing negative about that at all. And he was a respected and well celebrated Psychiatrist that DC approached to develop a role model for girls.

In fact SOME of what he created are in fact considered forward thinking in some circles when it comes contemporary ideas around relationships and feminism (particularly sexuality). Yes, it's obviously pure fetishism mostly, but you can also read into them as metaphors around the power relationships between men and women of that particular time period.

We're talking about the era where Suffragettes and Flappers were still relatively new concepts, and once the war started... women taking on roles that were traditionally meant for men, and then when the men came back from war, finding women in those roles. I see that as where the real meat of the Wonder Woman comics of that era lies... particularly since she is heavily involved in the military in that incarnation. Which is no accident.

It's easy to dismiss something on the surface as "icky", but it does say much about that time period, even beyond Marston's personal lifestyle and fetishes.

I think what happened was... Marstons sexually liberated Wonder Woman (subtextually) ran wild for so many decades, that editorial felt they had to remove it and depict a much more virginal Diana starting in the eighties reboot, but it was there as early as the seventies when they killed Steve Trevor (which oddly enough, seemed to INCREASE the fetishism of the 70's incarnation... and even spilled over a bit into the Lynda Carter show).

[EMCE Hammer]

I can commiserate, having suffered through what they've done to Superman, but I don't think it's fair for you to try to set rules of conduct in a thread you start. I don't think anyone's dumping on you or your opinion... they are disagreeing politely. What's the point of having a discussion if you aren't willing to tolerate disagreement? It just seems to me that there's room for both sides here, especially since no one is calling names or flying off the handle.

Like I said before, I totally agree with you. I hate what DC is doing to their characters, enough that I've stopped buying any new comics from them.

This is my take as well. The only new DC offerings that have come home with me in recent years are Tiny Titans and Batman B&B. Honestly, the concept that some Amazons give birth to males and what they do as a result piques my interest. It may well be another DC train wreck, but it's at least a concept with potential. It's certainly not the superficial crap like the Diana/Clark or Diana/Bruce romance angles that are completely played out.

[torgospizza]

From the article: "For me? Wrong time. Wrong character. Wrong message."

I can see why you as well as the blogger would be upset, Werewolf. I think her tying the Sandra Fluke thing into it was totally on her end, but whatever. I got sick of the comic industry promoting Obama for months on end (especially Wizard, a former subsidiary of the DNC, apparently), so we're all individuals with our tastes that occasionally get trod upon. We get irked from time to time and it usually isn't a big deal, but I can see where it gets personal when it's your favorite character or one that really represents something to you. If they made Captain America or Superman to be less than ideal, I wouldn't care for it. I'm sure the Canadian members here would prefer Guardian to be a stand-up guy, too. Marvel having Luke Cage act like a pimp for a while T.O.ed some people. I get why it would.

I do think this could be an interesting take on Paradise Island, though. Maybe if it were done as an Elseworlds title or something, especially. Most people, when thinking of Fiji or Tahiti, don't automatically think of the nutty, murderous stuff Captain Cook saw while exploring there--it's been kind of forgotten by most people. We think of the beauty, don't we? What if the Amazons had their own history that perhaps wasn't as splendid as the current DC Universe remembers it? Having said all that, Wonder Woman's a real icon for little girls, and I'd like to see her kept that way. She doesn't have to be dumbed-down to be a paragon of virtue, and making the character grittier isn't the same as making her better written. It would almost have been a better idea to make a Paradise Island miniseries to use this idea, without directly tampering with the character.

But will it matter in a year? Will the "New DC" still be the way it is, or will they have pulled a 180 to regain some fans? This might be a minor footnote on Wikipedia a couple years from now.

[samurainoir]

I'm sure the Canadian members here would prefer Guardian to be a stand-up guy, too. Marvel having Luke Cage act like a pimp for a while T.O.ed some people.

I can only speak for myself, and I can barely rustle up any kind of indifference every time they try to trot out another version of Alpha Flight. How many times have they killed each member? *shrug*

But y'know what? Those terrific two dozen or so issues of John Byrne's run still exist, no one has erased them or taken them from my house, and I still love the heck out of 'em. And he not only killed Guardian horribly, he brought him back, revealed he was a robot, and then killed him again. Which just blew my mind as a kid... not in a bad way necessarily. He really was the least interesting character of the bunch, and it set up a really unique status quo for the rest of the team.


And Claremont wrote Vindicator as a total jerkbag in that first appearance, which certainly created interesting conflict and mystery around Wolverine.
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There was a really funny issue of Black Panther written by Christopher Priest/Jim Owsley which skewered the fact that half the African American characters introduced in the seventies were in fact pimps and ho's (even the Falcon?), taking Marvel comics on a kid-friendly detour into the oddly empowering stereotypes of Blaxploitation film genre (I believe the term of common usage was "racketeer", which was fairly all encompassing).

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[boynightwing]

I kind of hate Alpha Flight. I can't get in to a bunch of bad stereotypes that are supposed to protect my country. Yet, I don't mind Captain Canuck but that's because Richard was my teacher for a year.

The thing is, they are not doing anything to make Wonder Woman less ideal. She just learned a something about her people that didn't make her too happy. And she learned it from one of the Gods who might have his own opinion on the matter. A little like Obiwan telling Luke how his father died...He didn't say to Luke "I chopped off his legs and arms and left him to die in a volcano." He said that Vader betrayed and murdered him. See where I'm going with this?

[ctc]

>the only constant is that the character changes. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. If comics depresses you... then it's probably a good thing to go away and do something that doesn't get you down (like finding comics you actually like and sharing that in an open forum).

It illustrates the biggest problem with any long running franchise; especially one with long term fans. Things change. Not just the character and the story, but society in general. Eventually you adapt or die. And I don’t mean in terms of just content: whole mediums experience shifts. Comics way back in the day were disposable general entertainment. Then kiddie fare. Then all growed up again.... Not only that, but with each cultural shift; and each changing of the role a format plays to the readers ideals change and what it means to be a hero, or bad guy, or whatever change. Batman used to straight-up murder guys. Superman used to threaten to. (....and may have thrown a guy out into the ocean....) It was okay ‘cos that’s what heroes did. The pulp hero dispatched the sinister villain, the sheriff shot the outlaw, soldiers killed the enemy....

>It's easy to dismiss something on the surface as "icky", but it does say much about that time period,

....and in a way, the characters themselves. When you look at the legacy of any character all sorts of questionable stuff comes up; and it IS part of that character.... one way or another. ‘Course, that doesn’t mean you have to LIKE it; but you do have to accept it, especially in a more academic discussion of said character. (So, no claiming Batman never killed anybody.)

>they are not doing anything to make Wonder Woman less ideal. She just learned a something about her people that didn't make her too happy.

True.... but I think a problem they’re gonna have is that this sort of story brings up all sorts of awkward questions that they won’t be able to answer in a perpetual, PG-13 comic. Most of the older, post-Golden age WW stuff portrayed the Amazons as almost sexless, which does away with all sorts of points you might not want to deal with. A convenience maintained by a good many writers over the years. (So, the Amazons were reincarnated beings, WW was made of clay, etc.) Add any hint of sexuality and things get awkward.... as evidenced by some of the earliest comics.

A story like this (which I’d rate a 4 on the nerd rage scale) is one that’s meant to hilight how dedicated to an idea the hero is.... by questioning their own society and upbringing.... and SHOULD have some sort of lasting ramification. Which is where the OTHER problem for long term fans comes in: we KNOW it’s all gonna change in a month, year, two years....

Don C.

[johnmiic]

So my take-a-way from this thread is...

So, I'd really appreciate no flood of pictures or nasty comments.

Werewolf starts a thread, asks no one post pics and people ignore his modest request and post pics.

I got sick of the comic industry promoting Obama for months on end (especially Wizard, a former subsidiary of the DNC, apparently),...

That's politics dude. No politics in threads on Mego Museum, (no religion either). You start inserting it into the threads an argument can break out the & thread gets locked.

[samurainoir]

^^^
There is some retconning going on in that claim John.

I never insult the heroes other people like. I'm also sympathetic when other people's fav heros get treated poorly. So, I'd really appreciate no flood of pictures or nasty comments.

the request was not "no pics", but "a flood of pics". Four pics is hardly a flood, and let's not reinforce the inaccuracies of what was said initially as "no pics". Let's not fan the hysteria here needlessly.

And they are hardly random "nasty" pics given the fact that I was clearly illustrating a point of the characters evolution. And it's not just that spanking and bondage were random occurrences here (as they are in Batman or Superman of the period)... they are purposefully common thematic occurrences that reflect deeply on her creator, Marston, and what he wanted to imbue in his character. To say that it has no bearing on the topic at hand, when the topic is based entirely on changes that Wonder Woman has undergone and is undergoing, is absolutely ridiculous.

There is also an entire fetish subculture that would take deep offence at the prejudice on display here, suggesting that what they do is somehow wrong.

And here is the basic flaw of the opening remarks... the assumption that Wonder Woman is being treated poorly. So far it appears that the two people who have said they actually READ the comic in question, do not feel that she is being treated poorly at all. The other flaw is assuming that there is a monopoly on who considers Wonder Woman a favourite character, and I have not said anything "nasty" or insulting about Wonder Woman at all. Quite the opposite, I am deeply fond of the character.

[samurainoir]

Yet, I don't mind Captain Canuck but that's because Richard was my teacher for a year.

With deep respect to Comely, who is a very nice gentleman, I think Canadians who are even aware of Captain Canuck, like the IDEA that he exists (and is produced, written and drawn in Canada, unlike Alpha Flight) more than the actual character and his exploits. He's had a pretty sporadic publishing history, but been forever preserved via many cultural heritage initiatives.

Including the postal stamp alongside Superman.

[johnmiic]

...the request was not "no pics", but "a flood of pics". Four pics is hardly a flood, and let's not reinforce the inaccuracies of what was said initially as "no pics". Let's not fan the hysteria here needlessly.

I stand corrected on flood of pics vs. no pics BUT I see no hysteria here. Just commenting on how someone can make a simple request and it's just ignored.

4 pics in 1 reply may not be a flood but in your first response to the topic you post pics. Can't you get your point accross just using words, LOL? It's not always necessary to make a thesis out of a reply. Werewolf asked nicely.