New Spider-Man

[The Bat]

You say you've enjoyed the hundred plus issue run of Ultimate Spiderman. You say you've enjoyed the final Death of Spiderman storyline... Why do you automatically believe that you won't enjoy This new title... Particularly sight unseen? It's the same writer you've enjoyed for 100+ issues.

Oh, this I can answer quickly. Because Peter Parker IS SPIDERMAN! Nuff said!

[david_b]

Well, i'm assuming that you've probably never stood in the middle of the playground and been told that you can't be Spider-man because you're not white.

I'll ignore what's obviously ignorant, condescending and insulting.

You've never seen the anquish I've felt being told I couldn't play "Luke Cage" because I wasn't Black.

Or Spock because I'm not Vulcan.

Or Galen because I wasn't a Simian.

Or Kato because I wasn't Oriental.

"Oh, the pain...."

[ctc]

>Everyone in this thread disagrees with you

Not everyone. Seriously! What’s a guy gotta do to get a little hate around here?!?!

>Why treat him differently than Peter Parker?

I gotta say that this is where my contention with the issue comes in. I don’t think Spidey’s ethnicity is important at all for the character; black, white, hispanic, asian, inuit.... it wouldn’t alter the core story or themes at all. So I see no controversy in the decision. What worries me is that by changing the guy in the mask, it gives them free reign to rerun the old tropes and claim them as new. (Just like why Lois and Clark breaking up bothered me.) But I reconciled myself to that sort of thing 20 years ago, when I noticed the subplots have been going around and around for way longer than I’d been alive. (‘Course, that’s also when I pretty much stopped reading superhero books. Coincidence?)

>Because Peter Parker IS SPIDERMAN!

Not in the Ultimates universe.

Don C.

[david_b]

>I gotta say that this is where my contention with the issue comes in. I don’t think Spidey’s ethnicity is important at all for the character; black, white, hispanic, asian, inuit.... it wouldn’t alter the core story or themes at all. So I see no controversy in the decision. What worries me is that by changing the guy in the mask, it gives them free reign to rerun the old tropes and claim them as new. (Just like why Lois and Clark breaking up bothered me.) But I reconciled myself to that sort of thing 20 years ago, when I noticed the subplots have been going around and around for way longer than I’d been alive. (‘Course, that’s also when I pretty much stopped reading superhero books. Coincidence?) Don C.

Don C.:

GREAT POINT, which I agree wholeheartedly. If the ethnicity doesn't matter, then... why change it..?

Apparently it does matter to some, I suspect MORE for selling comics than for any meaningful 'relevance', anyone believing different is FOOLING THEMSELVES.

This is a business, please remember.

[hedrap]

Well, the US is a multi cultural society with a great deal of diversity. As for my own country, it's the only one in the world with Multi-culturalism written into the constitution. Nothing wrong with Spiderman attempting to reflect that diversity. IIf they are cranking out more and more Spiderman titles anyway, why not take a chance with one?

Multi cultural is not what I'm talking about when it comes to India and Japan. They literally read differently than we do. If you gave a westerner a manga, they would think you printed the story backwards.

In the larger sphere of Spidey books, you are right that it's just one more. But diversity and multi-culti are not synonymous.

The ethnicity of Spiderman 2099 has nothing to do with trademark. The point was... Already precedence for an alt universe Spiderman that exists in one monthly title quite nicely alongside the dozens of comics that featured Peter Parker. What is the difference here?

Sure it did, but then we'd have to get into a totally different conversation about copyright and trademark. But to your point, I agree. It's one among many. So why is the reaction different? What does that say about Marvel now that they've gotten this response?

If Ultimate Spidey and 2099 are no different, than why wasn't 2099's "cultural diversity" exploited for PR the way it is with Ultimate? What does that say about Marvel's intentions, today? It goes to my earlier point. Quesada and company are into social advocacy, and the readers know it.

[ctc]

>I suspect MORE for selling comics than for any meaningful 'relevance'

It ALWAYS is. Always HAS been. Which is why it seems weird that THIS is the one that killed it for everyone. The last straw maybe? (Colbert had a good take on this last night.)

I can see them thinking not of “PC” diversity, but of the “y’know.... it’s SUPPOSED to be New York, but a surprising number of folks there are white....” It doesn’t ring true, if the Marvel world is supposed to mirror ours. And hey, if you think along those lines, why not Spidey?

>than why wasn't 2099's "cultural diversity" exploited for PR the way it is with Ultimate?

Back in the 90's I don’t think ethnicity was as prominent an issue as it has been the last few years. For example: despite the ENDLESS press, I don’t remember Steel being a black dude getting that much attention.(People didn’t flinch at the slightest whiff of “PC” either. Maybe ‘cos it hadn’t been invented yet?)

It also seems that there was more acceptance from the fans for change then too. The “GRRR! New books SUCK!” thing came later. (Shortly after the “Death of Superman,” co-inkey-dinkelley enough....)

Don C.

[hedrap]

Y’know.... you do have some good points, but again; this isn’t new. Think of the uber-whiney 80's X-Men, and how heavy handed they played social issues. (Or the 80's Titans, or “The Dark Knight Returns,” or the Punisher, or.... well.... durned near ANY 80's superhero....) Like I said earlier, what I can’t quite grasp is why it’s a problem for people NOW.Don C.

Well, because the entire point of the X-Men has been to represent the issues of different groups at different periods in their history. Sometimes it's blatant, other times it's been subtle. It's their theme.

As for NOW, it's what I wrote above. Marvel's motivations are not based in some creative need, but a mix of social advocacy dressed in opportunism. 2099 was a creative decision, Ultimates is based in a cause.

Did I miss the Ultimates issue where Aunt May or Sue Storm talked about Peter or Reed's Aspergers? Of course not. Why? Because Bendis doesn't feel any white guilt over that.

[samurainoir]

However, you do claim to have the adult ability to relate/empathize to those circumstances even if you have not been in them yourself.

So can you put yourself in the position of someone whom this has happened to, and see why that person would think that this was potentially a positive thing? WWPPD?

I'll ignore what's obviously ignorant, condescending and insulting.

You've never seen the anquish I've felt being told I couldn't play "Luke Cage" because I wasn't Black.

Or Spock because I'm not Vulcan.

Or Galen because I wasn't a Simian.

Or Kato because I wasn't Oriental.

"Oh, the pain...."

[samurainoir]

Oh, this I can answer quickly. Because Peter Parker IS SPIDERMAN! Nuff said!

I'd at least highly recommend the first three issues of Ultimate Fallout.

You owe it to Peter to at least attend his funeral.

But seriously, I think you'd really enjoy the Aunt May scenes, and Kitty, Bobby, and Johnny get their moment as well. They are genuinely moving character driven scenes, completely consistent with the characters from the past 100+ issues that you've enjoyed.

[MIB41]

However, you do claim to have the adult ability to relate/empathize to those circumstances even if you have not been in them yourself.

So can you put yourself in the position of someone whom this has happened to, and see why that person would think that this was potentially a positive thing?

With all due respect and sympathy for your circumstances as a child, do you not see where your argument is now taking the position of that kid which faulted you for your color? Your essentially role playing that part again by arguing the "validation" of this character because of what someone wrongly accused you of as a child. Don't you see the flaw in that thinking? I don't underestimate the scars from that rejection. But I would hope you have developed some insight and wisdom through these years to clearly see these kids were very wrong to say those things. And that you KNOW anyone can relate to Spider-man through experiences and not skin color. Every time you argue this point, your lashing out for all the wrong reasons and handing those bullies another victory.

[Hector]

Or Kato because I wasn't Oriental.

Asians are not too keen on the Oriental reference...

[david_b]

Asians are not too keen on the Oriental reference...

Hector, et tu PC..? Wow..

Actually I just confirmed you are correct ~ Apologies.

I've been called things I'm not 'keen' on, and it's NOT the point here at all, but I'll be the first to apologize here.

(...Also to any Vulcans I may have offended...)

Live Long, dudes.

[thunderbolt]

As for 2099 and Spider-Girl, it's called trademarks. Do you remember in the 90's when Marvel did that alternate X-reality which replaced the normal titles? That was all trademark driven. 2099 was supposed to be Ultimates before Ultimates. This tactic has been apart of the comic world since the golden age.

I really don't see what you are saying about trademarks? So they could have Spider-Girl and Spider-Man 2099 trademarked to keep some other company from the title? If DC did launch one of those titles, pretty sure Marvel would have a good case against them. I really don't see trademarks playing into any of the books or characters you mentioned, they are all tied to pre-established Marvel characters

[The Bat]

I'd at least highly recommend the first three issues of Ultimate Fallout.

You owe it to Peter to at least attend his funeral.

But seriously, I think you'd really enjoy the Aunt May scenes, and Kitty, Bobby, and Johnny get their moment as well. They are genuinely moving character driven scenes, completely consistent with the characters from the past 100+ issues that you've enjoyed.

I did buy the first 3 issues of Ultimate Fallout. But when they gave me #4 yesterday...I handed it back to them and told them to cancel the title.

[PeterRR]

Why not make him Gay and have an Asian Grandfather from Mothers side and an Indian Grandmother from Father side that will cover most of the groups and sell more books