Ageism or artists being black listed in comics...

[Random Axe]

When I worked for Arena Magazine back in the mid nineties, we interviewed, quite extensively, Keith Giffen. He's a really strange but cool guy who said something profound that still is relevant.

When asked about the Image revolution and all of the hottest artists jumping ship and why those guys in particular were so hot, he couldn't answer. He chose to take the high road and say they had their own style that resonated with fans. However, he did mention one thing that should ALWAYS define a good comic artist...

If you take away all of the word balloons sound effects, exposition and text, you should still be able to follow the story and know exactly what's going on.

You can count on one hand how many artists can do that today.

Scott

[ctc]

>If you take away all of the word balloons sound effects, exposition and text, you should still be able to follow the story and know exactly what's going on.

He's right.... but I think for our generation this got superceded by the designer comics of the 80's and 90's. The name was more important than the book, and a lot of folks did pin-up style stuff more than actual story. I think those times accellerated the original problem of this thread: there's always a rush to find the next big thing; and like our discussion a LONG ways back, folks NEED a winner. So when the next big thing is found it almost always invalidates what came before. At least as far as the fans are concerned.

Don C.

[Random Axe]

It may be coming back around.

I see less and less of the Mcfarlane/Lee inspired work each month. When you have artists like Ivan Reis, who obviously takes his craft very seriously and can do panel-to-panel in addition to pin-up stuff, it makes the old-school fanboy in me just a bit hopeful that others will follow his lead. I don't see anyone anytime soon doing stuff like Bogandove, Milgrom or Gil Kane. That's just a natural evolution. What needs to catch up with the artistic skills is storytelling.

[gootie29]

That story really got to me... I love Herb Trimpe. He was THE Hulk artist for so long I can't hardly imagine a Hulk that wasn't drawn by him. The older artists still have something to offer and I would love to see them do more. Byrne, Simonson, Golden... these guys were superstars in their day. Makes you wonder where Jim Lee and the rest of Image's original crew will be.
Of the current artists out there I really like John Cassaday, Bryan Hitch, Frank Quitely, and Amanda Conner the best. I think that they have a good future ahead of them. Lets hope they sock away some dough for their retirement!

[ctc]

>What needs to catch up with the artistic skills is storytelling.

One thing that helps is that people seem to have gone back to READING their comics, so there's more to be said for WRITING them. 'Course there IS a lot of good stuff out there, but it's all been marginalized and ignored; partly 'cos it's not superheroes, partly 'cos of the designer comic thing we're still trying to shake. I've been amazed at some of the small press and web comics of the last few years.

Don C.

[Earth 2 Chris]

If you take away all of the word balloons sound effects, exposition and text, you should still be able to follow the story and know exactly what's going on.

Those are words I try to live by. And it's even more important for comic artists to be excellent storytellers FIRST and draftsmen SECOND nowadays, due to the lack of captions explaining the action.

I bought Essential Tomb of Dracula vol.1 over the weekend, and reading it I realize how...sparse comic writing is as compared to what it used to be. Most modern comic writers don't indulge in the purple prose that their bronze age brethern did. And their Silver Age predecessors redundantly described each action the artist had depicted. There is a happy medium somewhere. But I miss the mood setting captions, and thought balloons!

Chris

[kingdom warrior]

See my whole thing with this is, instead of mounting a lawsuit against Marvel or DC which you may or not win most likely not.

Why don't these guys do their own thing. are their egos so gigantic that they can't form their own companies and self publish??? Or work for a smaller publishing company with the ability to keep the characters and get some royalties??

Gilbert and Xaimie Hernandez have been Published by Fantagraphics since the 80's and made a name for themselves with Love and Rockets one of the best comics EVER published. with a loyal fan base they've made comics that they wanted to do for years...at their own pace.

Living in the day and age of the net where facebook, twitter and tons of places to blog it's not hard to get the word out on the net to sell your stuff and get people interested in your work.

For these guys to sit around and moan about why they don't get hired by those two ***** comic book companies is a waste of time and air space.....their attitude should be freek them I'll do my own thing, and if that means taking another line of work while you do that so what......I'd feel better about myself creating something of mine than sleeping with them just to draw another stupid Spiderman/Batman story

[thunderbolt]

Man, that is just crap treatment of a great artist. I remember a lot of his Hulk stuff, my first every month bought comic was his Godzilla. Glad he got some work on some BPRD/Hellboy comics, along with John Severin.

[ctc]

>I'd feel better about myself creating something of mine than sleeping with them just to draw another stupid Spiderman/Batman story

It's an interesting idea, but a lot of the "mainstream" guys don't do so well taking that route. They usually end up making stuff remarkably similar to the aforemetioned Batman/Spiderman stuff they used to do, but with more swearing. I suspect it's 'cos a lot of these guys got into the biz 'cos they wanted to be cartoonists, and not because they themselves had stories they wanted to tell. So they end up locked in the "conventional wisdom." The Hernandezs are a good example, since they started doing their own thing. It's easier for them to move it to a new venue than a guy who wrote Spiderman for 20 years to come up with something actually new.

Don C.

[WannabeMego]

Most the the Older Artists (like Trimpe, Hasen, Ayers, etc.) may not see the day when Self-Publishing takes a widespread hold on the Net (i.e. Amazon)...but...Maybe Byrne, Buckler, Adams, Grell, & others will.

With the rise of iPad, Kindle, Nook, and other e-reading platforms & devices, Electronic Self-Publishing is going to hit a boom real soon.

Here is something that just came out that will help folks:

Google One Pass

...and Marvel is exploring many avenues as well:

Marvel Comics - Chrome Web Store

[torgospizza]

Gilbert and Xaimie Hernandez have been Published by Fantagraphics since the 80's...at their own pace.

I love those dudes' work, but I always wondered how they paid the bills. There's no way they can be breaking $30K/year, or am I underestimating how much cartoonists make?

[kingdom warrior]

I love those dudes' work, but I always wondered how they paid the bills. There's no way they can be breaking $30K/year, or am I underestimating how much cartoonists make?

Not sure but they have L&R merchandise that I know fans collect. Plus Xaime has done stuff for DC, The New Yorker, many Album covers Michelle Shocked,Dr.Know,Los Lobos etc... Gilbert also has done tons of other work besides L&R.......Plus they had a development deal for a L&R movie and I'm sure they got paid for the rights........they might not be super rich but they're not starving.....