Stan Lee gets star on Hollywood Walk of Fame

[huedell]

re: Jason vs. Sandy here...

What I wanna offer is that, the way I see it, it's a tough battle here
because you have the "idea guy" that feels he's gonna be derided because
the artists/story guy co-workers bring so much to the table
and his "seeds" aren't being championed as much as he'd like,
vs. the hardworking talented guys who bring so very much to the project
table, yet aren't out there self-promoting, and feel THEY're being shafted.

If you can accept that that's the basic struggle, you can accept that
there's a bit of right and wrong on both sides, and that nice compliments
for both sides co-exist along with heated resentment.

I admit, the reality COULD be more complicated than that, but
after being on both sides artistically, it's how I like to look at it.

[SlipperyLilSuckers]

Respect for each other and our differing opinions goes a long way in my book.

[kennermike]

Really?

Interesting you should say that, Jason. Tell you what, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here; Let's say it is an opinion... Who's opinion is more likely to be valid or lets say, a more accurate assessment of reality? The guy's who has met a lot of these artists (Kirby, Neal Adams, Buscema) and has talked to them at length about Stan, and has also sat in a room with the man in question here, on more than one occasion, listening to his bone headed ideas about everything from "Alter Ego", to "Striperella"? OR-- Someone who hasn't? It's a pretty simple question Jason, that requires a simple and very obvious answer.

You think that because you have a house filled with little superhero dolls, or you saw "Iron Man" 30 times, or that you think you're so up on the current events of geek culture, that makes you better qualified to form an opinion about Stan Lee? You would be incorrect. All you need to do, is simply look at EVERYTHING this man has tried to "create" since the Marvel glory days, and see that it has been an epic failure, to realize that he is not the driving creative force behind any of it. Again Jason, I'm IN the industry. I know more than you do about this. That may be a hard pill for you to swallow, but it's a fact. You can make whatever comments you want or share your own "opinions", but that doesn't mean those comments or opinions hold any water. It's all just conjecture...

I'm sorry if my interjections of the sad reality of Hollywood, conflict with your views, or tear down the delusions you have about what really goes on behind the scenes with your precious superheroes. If you choose to live in a little bubble, where you believe everything you're spoon fed by the media about the industry, that's fine. Just don't come at me like you did and tell me that I'm bitter or wrong about something that I live and breathe and am very close to. I have worked in different aspects of this industry for over 20 years, from comics, to action figures, to making my own feature film, and my resume and work speak for themselves... No offense here J, but I think my "opinion" as you put it (bitter or not) about this particular subject matter, has more first hand knowledge backing it up than yours.

SC

I worked in the Hollywood industry for almost 10 years and gave up and I am very bitter about it,not to say I know anything about the Superhero world and artists but pretty much %100 percent of what you say Sandy about the industry is pretty much always on the nose when we have threads like this.Its an opinion but its an informed opinion on your part Sandy with 25 years of being in the industry to prove it am I right?

[BlackKnight]

Sandy - ,

I really Don't give a Flying F what you Write. It's your World Bro, ... I'm Just in it. However to Write that Someone Is a Talentless Fool ..., As you put it, is Not a Factual Statement, it is an Opinion. And THAT is what I commented on ...., Not All the Other Crap inwhich you chose to somewhat Publically Belittle Me. I don't Know Stan Lee, SO I don't really give a Damn.

I don't "think" Anything, and Have Far better things to Do, Here and In My Personal Life, than Debate Your Hard On For Someone You Dislike. Inwhich, We might Need Your Own Section for that Here at the Museum.

[Cmonster]

I really Don't give a Flying F what you Write. It's your World Bro, ... I'm Just in it. However to Write that Someone Is a Talentless Fool ..., As you put it, is Not a Factual Statement, it is an Opinion. And THAT is what I commented on ...., Not All the Other Crap inwhich you chose to somewhat Publically Belittle Me. I don't Know Stan Lee, SO I don't really give a Damn.

Jason,

You misunderstood the point, which is fine. You're taking this way too personal... Anyway, what I'm trying to say, is that although everyone has a RIGHT to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion VALID.

People like to look at the world through these rose colored lenses, where no one is right and no one is wrong, and everyone's input and opinion is worth something. Well, when the politically correct glasses come off and REALITY sets in, some people ARE right and some people ARE wrong. Some people's opinions ARE absolutely worthless.The bum down the street, in front of the 711, begging for change may have an opinion on what medication one should take for a certain ailment, but A DOCTOR is going to have a much more valid opinion about that, BECAUSE he's a FRAKKIN DOCTOR!!! He went to school for half his life and gets paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to OFFER HIS OPINIONS ON MEDICINE, which in my "opinion" is more valid than the bum's.

You get the analogy now? I think I made it simple enough, dude.

SC

[samurainoir]

An interesting point of view from Mark Evanier. Kirby's former assistant and close friend.
The JACK F.A.Q. - Page 1

Who did what on the Lee-Kirby collaborations?

Ooh...tough one to start with. Well, it's safe to say Jack did all the pencilling. Beyond that, we run into all sorts of semantic arguments having to do with definitions of the word "writing" and with the fact that Mssrs. Lee and Kirby both have/had notoriously poor memories. You also have the fact that, when two creative talents get together and come up with an idea, each of them might honestly believe that he suggested at least the core of the concept if not the entire thing. This happens in any collaboration anywhere and, ultimately, you usually have to just say that they both had the idea. Ergo, I say that the Lee-Kirby creations are Lee-Kirby creations.

Some of the ideas sound more like Stan to me, some sound more like Jack and there's some documentation and other evidence that suggests that certain ideas flowed more from one gent than the other. Even then, even where one person contributed 80% of the notion, they are still Lee-Kirby co-creations. The plots came from both, though Stan has acknowledged that once Marvel started to grow and he became busier, Jack was largely on his own to figure out the details of each story, if not the basic plotline. Stan's dialogue sometimes closely paraphrased marginal notes that Jack wrote while drawing, and sometimes deviated altogether. I do think Stan has been unfairly maligned by those who've said that all he did was retype and polish Jack's notations. I also think Jack was wronged to some extent by credits that gave him no credit for anything other than drawing because he certainly did more than that.

Didn't Kirby contribute the cosmic concepts and Lee contribute the human elements?

You might think that. Once upon a time, I did, as well. But after talking extensively with both Stan and Jack, as well as some of their co-workers...and after examining a lot of Stan Lee plot outlines and Jack Kirby marginal notes, my conclusion is that that wasn't always the case. Stan definitely contributed some of the more "cosmic" (for want of a better adjective) ideas and Jack certainly contributed some of the elements we might call "soap opera." There are specific contributions that I believe can be attributed to one or the other, at least in that one of them was the primary source. But, as stated above, there's a point beyond which one cannot tell who did what.

[samurainoir]

some fun stuff...

Ditko's “How Stan Lee and Steve Ditko Create Spider-Man”
Lee_Ditko.jpg (image)


Here's Kirby's version....
Lee_Kirby.jpg (image)

[SlipperyLilSuckers]

Ok Sandy, let me rephrase if you will.

I think it is respectful to allow others the right to have, and express, their own opinions even if they do happen to differ from yours.

In my opinion, it is more to do with the right to freedom of speech and simple courteousy to others than being prescribed by political correctness.

[Cmonster]

I think it is respectful to allow others the right to have, and express, their own opinions even if they do happen to differ from yours.

Cat, I'm inexorably upset over this now and I'm DONE being misunderstood by people who don't have the insight nor the intelligence to understand what I'm saying here, even though I've explained in the most basic, rudimentary, and simplest of terms.

With all due respect, the issue here is NOT whether the opinions of others DIFFER from mine, it's about when those opinions are unfounded and based on conjecture or thoughts that have NO connection to THE ACTUAL SUBJECT whatsoever, instead of EXPERIENCE.

Don't ask me why I'm gonna try this AGAIN, because even I don't even frakking know, but here goes:

I'll propose this in the form of a question; Why would you not acknowledge the opinion of say, a cabinet maker, when it comes to fixing an airplane? Well, any person who has even a modicum of intelligence, would say; "Because that cabinet maker knows absolutely nothing about planes or how to fix them..." You would contact an engineer or aircraft maintenance specialist... A FRAKKING GUY WHO CAN FIX A PLANE!!!

I'm NOT disrespecting NOR dismissing Jasons, or anyone else's opinion here. I'm NEGATING it. I'm saying it's simply NOT THE CASE. There's no disrespect intended at all in that. I LIKE Jason, I think he's a talented guy. It's NOT personal. I'm just saying that I would know more about this SPECIFIC thing than he does. PERIOD. If that's hard for him or anyone else to hear, that's on HIM, not ME. Go get the crying towel... I'm SO finished with this crap.

That's IT.

I'm done.

Goodnight.

SC

[samurainoir]

Roy Thomas was in the Marvel offices during the latter part of the Lee/Kirby collaboration. Here's his opinion...
TwoMorrows Publishing - Roy Thomas Interview - Kirby Collector Eighteenth Issue

TJKC: Should the Marvel characters be equally considered co-creations of Stan and Jack?

ROY: It's hard to divide things and say "equal." Sometimes it's 50/50, sometimes it's not, but they are co-creators of almost everything they did together. Sometimes if there had to be only one creator listed, it would have to be Stan, because he probably came up with the idea of the Fantastic Four and the characters. If you had to say there was one creator of the Silver Surfer, it was definitely Jack. But look at the Human Torch; was that created by Jack Kirby? Stan Lee? In many ways it's just a revamp of the Carl Burgos character. In collaborative mediums, the credit that says "Created by..." is usually some sort of legal lie. (laughter) But if you had to choose one creator, quite often Stan would have to be that person, simply because he got there first, and said, "Let's do a character called Thor," if that's what happened. It wouldn't make any difference if Jack had once done a character named Thor at DC. But that doesn't mean Jack shouldn't be credited with co-creating the character. It's very rare that things are nice and neat and simple. I think what happens is, the people that like Marvel or Stan will say Stan was the main creator, and the people that buy into Jack's particular situation will say it's all Jack. The truth is not always, but usually, in-between.

These guys were so talented and so valuable to the company; it's really a shame some of these things had to happen. They were both indispensable. I don't think Stan would've created Marvel Comics - and certainly it would not have been created in the same way or taken off the way it did - without Jack being there to realize these early stories; Ditko too, but especially Jack. On the other hand, there's no evidence Jack would've done this by himself either. It was a collaboration. Stan was maybe the man on the spot, and the guy who guided it, but... is it the jockey or the horse that wins the race? (laughter) What you really want is for the jockey and the horse to become a centaur, but the centaur is a very unstable life form, (laughter) who'll slip back into being a jockey and a horse.

Roy Thomas of course was immortalized by Kirby as "Houseroy", Funky Flashman's sidekick who met a less than flattering end.

[ctc]

>although everyone has a RIGHT to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion VALID

True; but I think the problem you've been running into is that you're not providing any support for your positions, so it's tough for those who disagree to see your point. I've always tried to show the thru-lines for my argument. If you check out this post, you'll see how samurainoir connected to interviews to support a position. Stuff like that. Otherwise:

>I'm DONE being misunderstood by people who don't have the insight nor the intelligence to understand what I'm saying here,

See, like that. If it crops up with startling frequency that most people don’t get what you’re saying maybe the problem isn’t everyone else.

>even though I've explained in the most basic, rudimentary, and simplest of terms.

Well.... you’ve said the same thing a few times; but if folks didn’t get it the first time you can either give up (and continuing to post isn’t giving up) or try something different. Providing examples is a good one: cite some comics as examples, or post a few quotes from interviews of pertinent folks.

....and cut back on the ad hominem.

Don C.

[Random Axe]

I look at Stan Lee's legacy like this. THe dude was an idea guy, a pitchman for the most part. He had some incredible ideas in the beginning and really built some amazing books. However, shortly after this he ran out of ideas. It happens.

For anyone to classify him as talentless is a stretch. He had talent once, but the well ran dry. He also may have taken credit for things he did not do. Wouldn't be the first time that happened in this world.

Bottom line, if Lee hadn't done what he accomplished, there would be no superhero movies currently and the comics industry, including DC, would have had only marginal success. Lee, Kirby and Ditko reinvigotated the genre. He maye have done nothing noteworthy since, but he did lay the cement for our generation of comics. Go ahead and give him a star. Hell, give him a GOlden Globe, a Nobel Prize and the Lombardi Trophy. He's so damn old and senile he wouldn't even remember it happening and you could just take them back the next day.

Posting insulting and patronizing diatribe in these posts helps nothing and goes against the intent of the post author. I can feel the tension through my laptop. It's just funny books, guys.

Scott

[Hector]

I haven't read a comic book in about ten years...

[samurainoir]

Stan Lee's over-crediting himself is very well documented, but I can also understand those that are firmly in the Kirby Camp as well.

After all, according to Kirby, "I wrote the stories.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbTrU...layer_embedded

Robert Steibel has this commentary over at the Kirby museum in regards to this particular interview...
Jack Kirby Interview Part VI | Kirby Dynamics

Jack clearly doesn’t want to discuss Stan Lee in the interview, and passes on the subject the first time a listener asks him about the subject. A second listener asks Jack about working with Lee and Jack says “I wrote the stories.” Much has been written about Jack’s comments in this segment and here is my opinion: I think that after decades of Lee’s false solo-creator propaganda, Jack was frustrated and whether it was conscious or unconscious, Kirby was taking an equally absurd stance on the authorship debate as a reaction to Lee’s equally absurd position. We know Lee wrote the text, contributed plots, and edited the stories, so it probably would’ve been smart for Jack to make that clear, but at the same time, so few people are aware Jack wrote the bulk of his 60s stories using visuals and margin notes, I can understand Kirby choosing to focus on his own creative contributions in this interview.

At the same time, if Jack would have given a more balanced account of what had happened in the Kirby/Lee collaboration, I think he would have come off better, but I think this exchange is an example of how upset not getting proper credit was to Jack. This is one of those situations where we can see Jack giving his critics ammunition if they want to criticize his character (they can claim Kirby denied Lee his proper credit) but mainly I think this is an example of a situation where two men — Lee/Kirby — had an extreme difference of opinion on who created and wrote the bulk of Jack’s 60s Marvel stories, and that came out in this interview, which as far as I’m aware is one of the few Jack ever did. The difference is that Lee has shown he remains a savvy and brilliant media manipulator, while Kirby simply didn’t have that kind of skill, so today the scales remain unbalanced.

[huedell]

Lee/Kirby — had an extreme difference of opinion on who created and wrote the bulk of Jack’s 60s Marvel stories, and that came out in this interview, which as far as I’m aware is one of the few Jack ever did. The difference is that Lee has shown he remains a savvy and brilliant media manipulator, while Kirby simply didn’t have that kind of skill, so today the scales remain unbalanced.

That's right on the mark....as I said, it's an odd struggle.....with
plusses and minuses on both sides. It's unfortunate Kirby didn't
write a definitive piece on the subject.