Alex Ross' NEW Captain America

[Vortigern99]

Samurainoir, I'm aware of Batman's origins as a killer, but the character as we now understand him has made it an essential part of his career to mete out justice and not murderous vengeance. This is why showing him, on occasion, employing a firearm is such a striking image -- it is outside the realm of his usual behavior and so is a shocking, rare and temporary event.

With this new Cap costume, the gun is codified right into the character's permanent persona. I take issue with this.

Jim Shooter once wrote a very passionate piece about why the Punisher was not a super-hero; a vigilante and an enforcer, certainly -- but, simply put, a super-hero does not kill. Shooter's words were far more persuasive than mine, but nonetheless I firmly hold to his perhaps now-antiquated notion.

Super heroes, in the opinion of creators like Shooter and myself, rise above the thirst for homicidal revenge that characterizes other action-adventure protagonists such as Conan or James Bond. Superman doesn't kill, Batman doesn't kill... and neither should Captain America.

[jds1911a1]

Samurainoir, I'm aware of Batman's origins as a killer, but the character as we now understand him has made it an essential part of his career to mete out justice and not murderous vengeance. This is why showing him, on occasion, employing a firearm is such a striking image -- it is outside the realm of his usual behavior and so is a shocking, rare and temporary event.

With this new Cap costume, the gun is codified right into the character's permanent persona. I take issue with this.

Jim Shooter once wrote a very passionate piece about why the Punisher was not a super-hero; a vigilante and an enforcer, certainly -- but, simply put, a super-hero does not kill. Shooter's words were far more persuasive than mine, but nonetheless I firmly hold to his perhaps now-antiquated notion.

Super heroes, in the opinion of creators like Shooter and myself, rise above the thirst for homicidal revenge that characterizes other action-adventure protagonists such as Conan or James Bond. Superman doesn't kill, Batman doesn't kill... and neither should Captain America.

we haven't seen the book yet so maybe the Gun (while looking like a M1911 army model) might be some non lethal item (a la the golden age Sandman's Gas Gun) Not holding my breath on this (pun intended) but who knows. Superheroes have killed as a last resort on occasion (much like police in real life) it just isn't thier primary way to mete out justice. I have no issue with him having a weapon or even using it if necessary much like a policeman does, but if his first reaction in a fight is to blast away I agree with your argument.

[samurainoir]

Samurainoir, I'm aware of Batman's origins as a killer, but the character as we now understand him has made it an essential part of his career to mete out justice and not murderous vengeance. This is why showing him, on occasion, employing a firearm is such a striking image -- it is outside the realm of his usual behavior and so is a shocking, rare and temporary event.

With this new Cap costume, the gun is codified right into the character's permanent persona. I take issue with this.

Jim Shooter once wrote a very passionate piece about why the Punisher was not a super-hero; a vigilante and an enforcer, certainly -- but, simply put, a super-hero does not kill. Shooter's words were far more persuasive than mine, but nonetheless I firmly hold to his perhaps now-antiquated notion.

Super heroes, in the opinion of creators like Shooter and myself, rise above the thirst for homicidal revenge that characterizes other action-adventure protagonists such as Conan or James Bond. Superman doesn't kill, Batman doesn't kill... and neither should Captain America.

Wolverine kills. Spiderman killed once accidentally while visiting Berlin with Wolverine (still in continuity given the fact that they just solicited a What If comic dealing with that event). Superman killed the Phantom Zone criminals during Byrne's run. All can be found at your local Toys R Us as Toys aimed at PreSchool kids. I am actually overjoyed that the Punisher never made the "Spiderman and Friends" line.

Steve Rogers in his capacity as Captain America killed a guy in that issue I previously posted where he's holding the Uzi IIRC.

John Walker (now known as USAgent) as Captain America killed the guys who killed his parents.

Keep in mind as well that this new Captain America is not Steve Rogers. It's very likely The Winter Soldier/Bucky, who has been shown to kill pretty much throughout his modern appearances in the past couple of years, with the exception of the latest issues, which means there is hope yet for the former sidekick!


It seems like you are very passionate about this, so before we get too far into this, I'm mostly taking the **** playing Devil's Advocate here and simply pointing out the trivia more than anything else.

I'm actually fiercely Canadian, pro-gun control, heavily opposed to the Death Penalty, and very much in favour of getting my friends in the Canadian Peacekeeping Organizations out of Afghanistan and back home to their wife and kids. That irony probably did not come across in my earlier statement about "Killing America's Enemies".

[thunderbolt]

Quote-Super heroes, in the opinion of creators like Shooter and myself, rise above the thirst for homicidal revenge that characterizes other action-adventure protagonists such as Conan or James Bond. Superman doesn't kill, Batman doesn't kill... and neither should Captain America


Does Bond really have a homicidal thirst for revenge? He's just doing his job. His business is taking out maniacs and would be world conquerers, and business is good.

Conan on the other hand lives in a different time, you could lump in all the LOTR characters or any other sword and sorcery type, too.

[samurainoir]

Quote-Super heroes, in the opinion of creators like Shooter and myself, rise above the thirst for homicidal revenge that characterizes other action-adventure protagonists such as Conan or James Bond. Superman doesn't kill, Batman doesn't kill... and neither should Captain America


Does Bond really have a homicidal thirst for revenge? He's just doing his job. His business is taking out maniacs and would be world conquerers, and business is good.

Conan on the other hand lives in a different time, you could lump in all the LOTR characters or any other sword and sorcery type, too.

The Conan in the novels certainly has differences from many of the eighties comics bearing his name (although I'm amazed at Busiek's recent work and the care he takes given the original source material). Those guys are certainly not Arnold Schwarzeneggar.

James Bond is an interesting point of comparison because he's probably been through as many incarnations as Superman or Batman.

You can go back to the source material of the novels and pick out instances where he has demonstrated thirst for revenge, which could be interpreted as homicidal. You can also call him a misogynist, a sociopath, an imperialist, etc etc.

Sean Conmery certainly showed him with a bit of lust for violence. On the other hand Roger Moore seemed pretty detached from it all (and to some extent I think Pierce Brosnen as well). George Lazenby seemed to be the most emotional Bond of all, but then again, he fell in love, married and watched his love interest die.

There is much room for intepretation given the creation by comittee that these characters endure through all the different media and times they come back into popularity. It's ultimately the fact that these characters are so malleable that they endure and survive. "Batman does not Kill" seems to be a pretty strong line, but then again, I'm sure "Batman does not torture or maim or cripple" was along the same lines in the fifties and sixties, but lo and behold The Dark Knight has become one of the most iconic interprertations of Batman.

Now we have a Wonder Woman that kills when necessary. We certainly could not have imagined Linda Carter grabbing a badguy and snapping their neck like that can we? On the other hand, it does make Wonder Woman much more interesting than she has been in decades... it means she's not just "The female Superman". Not saying whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but what it has done is created story and character possibilities to be explored on grounds that have not been covered a dozen times before. Particularly amongst the tension it generated between Superman and Batman who don't believe in killing. At the end of the day moral ambiguity does create dialogue within ourselves and with others, and helps us question the changing values of the society around us.

[Vortigern99]

I don't disagree on any particular point. I stand corrected on my hardline statement "Super-heroes do not kill." Obviously I have to admit that Wolverine is a super-hero, and of course he does kill on occasion.

The list of super-heroes-who-kill is important, though, because every instance seems anamolous or uncharacteristic in some way. Wolverine is the exception that proves the rule, if you will; USAgent's revenge-killings are designed to point up the contrast between his methods and the 'real' Captain America's; Spider-Man's was an accident that surely tore up Parker's conscience, etc.

I'm especially glad you mentioned the recent Wonder Woman storyline, because I appreciate the impact this kind of event has, testing the perameters of what it means to be a super-hero. There is that moral gray area that seems somehow fitting for a Greek demi-goddess to explore.

But in the WW example, again, she did it once under very specific circumstances. The story has stirred controversy in the fanbase, which again is a positive and productive enterprise.

The difference here is that Cap is carrying a weapon in his hand or strapped to his belt as a visual reminder that he can and will deal out death. Comics are visual and iconic; if Captain America is shown brandishing a firearm in all or most of his posters, pin-ups, book covers, lunchboxes, and of course, the comics themselves, then his image as a peacemaker and righteous defender of the weak is altered and subverted.

Anyway. I realize I may seem to be making a big deal out of nothing. It's true I'm more passionate about this subject than most comics-readers or sci-fi fans. I do hold out hope, though, that Cap's gun will somehow prove to be non-lethal. Maybe just a 'Cap-gun.'

[ctc]

>The difference here is that Cap is carrying a weapon in his hand or strapped to his belt as a visual reminder that he can and will deal out death.

Y'know... my biggest problem with the gun is that Cap doesn't need it. He's got an indestructible shield, that can be used as a projectile, ricochets, and (if it hasn't ben "retconned" out of existence) it DOES have an edge. (As I recall he decapitated Baron Blood with it.) It's like he has a pistol now 'cos it's SOOOO KEWELLLL!!!!! Hell; he had a remote control for the shield at one point! The pistol is just dead weight. ("Alright Galactus; don't move! I've got you covered....!")

>I do hold out hope, though, that Cap's gun will somehow prove to be non-lethal.

It will... at least EVENTUALLY. Maybe he'll cop some "mercy rounds" from the Punisher, since I've been told Frank doesn't use 'em any more. But the "macho hero/heroic hero" cycle comes and goes....

>Maybe just a 'Cap-gun.'

....ouch....

Don C.

[Adam West]

Don't particularly like this costume design but Alex Ross is my favorite comic book illustrator bar none.

It is still an excellent drawing. To me, he is the Norman Rockwell of current pop culture. I would love to own some original artwork of his but it is way out of my league.

I do think one of these days (I'm sure way past our lifetimes) and after he's gone, original art work will command $100,000's maybe even millions depending on the piece of art.

[samurainoir]

Don't particularly like this costume design but Alex Ross is my favorite comic book illustrator bar none.

It is still an excellent drawing. To me, he is the Norman Rockwell of current pop culture. I would love to own some original artwork of his but it is way out of my league.

I do think one of these days (I'm sure way past our lifetimes) and after he's gone, original art work will command $100,000's maybe even millions depending on the piece of art.

I don't know why, but this reminded me of stories about how Picasso in his later years would simply sign a napkin to pay for meals in expensive restaurants. Not sure if it's true or not, but it kind of amuses me.

Over at http://www.alexrossart.com/, it seems like even the most rudimentary of prelim sketches go for hundreds of dollars.

[Captain]

With a Captain America film in development, I cant see Steve Rogers being left for dead for very long.
It was a bad idea to start with, it would be like if DC were so foolish as to kill Superman, maim Batman, turn WW into a murdererer......Huh...They already did all that?
.....Man, I hate modern comics!

[Blue Meanie]

Forget about all the Alex Ross Cap America Marvel DREK!!! ...this is the series you are going to want to get when it comes out...designs by Alex Ross and Krueger:

[samurainoir]

On the timely topic of Heroes Who Kill, what do folks think about the latest developments in the pages of Green Lantern/GL Corps?





Time to add Green Lanterns to the list of Superheroes Who Kill.

[The Toyroom]

Time to add Green Lanterns to the list of Superheroes Who Kill.

Yeah but so far it's only Sinestro Corps members so it's all good!

[jds1911a1]

I guess this is acceptable since in the modern retcon the GL corps is more of a military than police force. Notice though it isn the human GL's (i think if they ever have HAL kill again their will be a riot) and Killowog does say it's a last resort

[brineb]

I love Cap, but I am a little disappointed by the Alex Ross costume and I usually LOVE Alex Ross' designs. I am looking forward to Super Powers!!!