Have you actually read "Seduction of the innocent"?

[ctc]

>Japan faced it's own censorship controversies in the late eighties when the press latched onto the fact that notorious serial killer Tsutomu Miyazaki was an avid manga reader

Interesting ‘cos it used the same logic Wertham did; a psycho read comics, so comics made him a psycho.

Japan is an interesting case study, since they never really had their inquest like we did. They came close a few times; but it didn’t really carry over until the 90's. Even so, their comics developed similarly to ours, except their equivalent of the 60's undergrounds was very mainstream. Makes me wonder how OUR industry would have developed had the Code not been put in place. Would the early 80's independent boom happened earlier? Would it have taken?

Don C.

[samurainoir]

Just to bring the discussion full circle, I just attended a really interesting lecture presentation this weekend at the Toronto Comics Arts Festival, on Manga and Censorship.

Japan faced it's own censorship controversies in the late eighties when the press latched onto the fact that notorious serial killer Tsutomu Miyazaki was an avid manga reader (and anime and horror movie fan).
Tsutomu Miyazaki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ctc]

>I'm still trying to figure out how it became a manga love fest.

Wertham=are comics for kids? Comics not for kids=Japanese or Eurpoean comics, and not too many folks are familiar with European comics 'cos they never really had a big wave hit here.

Ta-dah!

Don C.

[thunderbolt]

^^^I'm still trying to figure out how it became a manga love fest.

[ctc]

>the artistic and creative are able to express the emotions and feelings that the ignorant consider taboo

Plus, people don't react so good to things that are even a little bit different. (Case in point; I'm surprised this thread hasn't degenerated into "Japanese comics suck!" yet....)

Don C.

[B-Lister]

Wertham was wrong, and we lost an entire generation's creative energy as a result.

I've read the book, and Wertham and Jack Thompson are cut from the same cloth. A whackjob with too much credibility. Far more than he deserves.

the unenlightened, and ignorant will always fear the artistic and creative. Because the artistic and creative are able to express the emotions and feelings that the ignorant consider taboo, and are too afraid, or numb to express themselves. So they seek to exploit, and if they can't exploit, they seek to control.

Which is why free expression is so sacred, and absolute free expression should always be embraced.

[samurainoir]

Deathnote ***SPOILER ALERT***

You mean with Near? I thought that worked pretty good, 'cos the idea seemed to be all about putting the ol B-slap on Light. To show that he'd already been rendered obsolete.

I was talking about the final fate of L. Although it was really fascinating how he was able to eventually find victory through the machinations of his two proteges. I loved the second act cat and mouse between Light and L so much, that the third act of Light's complete descent seemed a little anti-climactic because of how less up close and personal it was prior. Still some awesome twists and turns before the end though.

Did you end up reading Dragon Head?

[ctc]

>Reiko is currently on sale at BMV for six bucks a volume.

But they sort of stopped mid-story! At least last I saw. *sigh*

>the conflict felt a little less personal after that and the stakes didn't seem quite as high in some regards.

Hmmmm..... IF YOU HAVEN'T READ IT; STOP HERE!!!


You mean with Near? I thought that worked pretty good, 'cos the idea seemed to be all about putting the ol B-slap on Light. To show that he'd already been rendered obsolete.



OKAY; YOU CAN READ NOW.

>Deathnote is also a live action movie and anime, but I prefer the manga incarnation.

Definitely; although I liked the tv show too. Probably 'cos it's pretty much dead-on to the comic.

>I also really love Drifting Classroom.

Oh yeah! That's another weird one!

Don C.

[samurainoir]

-Reiko the Zombie Shop. WAY insane levels of T&A, and lots of disturbing violence; but kinda funny. Almost a parody of comics where kids collect things and make ‘em fight; in this one the kids collect the souls of the damned.
-DeathNote. 12 volumes, and one of the few stories where the characters are supposed to be super-intelligent and actually ACT that way.

Both on my list as well. Reiko is currently on sale at BMV for six bucks a volume.

Without giving too much away. For me, the best parts of Deathnote are about the first 2/3rds before there was a bit of a "soft reboot" on the status quo. While I admire that ballsy move on the part of the creator, the conflict felt a little less personal after that and the stakes didn't seem quite as high in some regards. Not exactly a bad thing given the fact that it is a series which was completely unpredictable at times, but more to do with what a completely riviting character the original antagonist was to the anti-hero of the book. It's head and shoulders above most of the stuff out there.

Deathnote is also a live action movie and anime, but I prefer the manga incarnation.

I also really love Drifting Classroom. Lord of the Flies through a uniquely Japanese horror filter.

[ctc]

>The only superhero comics I read these days are collections of classics.

I can empathize. Even as a kid I didn’t like superheroes and read stuff like the Warren mags, Heavy Metal, the Harvey books..... (Dunno if there’s a connection there.) I got into comics serious-like during the 80's boom, with Grimjack, Mars, Judge Dredd, Golgo 13....

Didn’t read superheroes until I was in my mid-20's and working at a comic shop. I found for myself, the stuff I enjoyed was:

DC: The mid/late 60's “gogo checks” era. They still had the completely unfettered imagination of the earlier books, with a touch of consistent story.
MARVEL: Late 60's/early 70's. Same insane ideas, but with thoroughly constructed stories.

By the mid/late 80's it seemed like all the imagination had been sucked out in favour of “plot,” “development” and worst of all “pertinence.”

>I can't get past my bias that all the art looks the same to me.

This one always kinda makes me laugh; especially from people who DON’T have the same problem with superhero comics. You can usually tell the era ‘cos everybody’s following one of a handful of “acceptable” styles. After reading a few Japanese books, especially from different genres and eras you’ll be able to tell ‘em apart.

>I'm always slightly concerned that any Manga I pick up is going to turn weird sexually.

...and/or feature disturbing violence. (Nobody EVER mentions the violence....) I grew up on Heavy Metal, so it doesn’t bother me.

As for recommendations; some of my faves are:

-JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure. THIS one has a zillion chapters ‘cos it’s actually several different sagas that build on previous ones. Currently VIZ is publishing the fourth series, which is one of the best. It’s a weird take on superheroes, where everybody has psychic powers that manifest as a dude.
-Reiko the Zombie Shop. WAY insane levels of T&A, and lots of disturbing violence; but kinda funny. Almost a parody of comics where kids collect things and make ‘em fight; in this one the kids collect the souls of the damned.
-DeathNote. 12 volumes, and one of the few stories where the characters are supposed to be super-intelligent and actually ACT that way.
YuYu Hakusho. The first few volumes are AWESOME; but it devolves into the tournament thing in several spots, which drag on and on....
-Area 88. The first series I read in Japanese, ‘cos they never finished the official English translation. An action book done by a former Shoujo artist.
-UruseiYatsura. A friend describes it as “the Japanese Archie,” and that’s .... well.... maybe. With aliens. And monsters. And.... er.... you kinda hafta just read it.
-FrankenFran. Maybe not to your tastes ‘cos it’s.... wrong.... on durned near every level.
-BlackJack. Mercenary surgeon. One of Tezuka’s weirdest books.
-Gundam Sousei. A fictionalized account of how the original Gundam TV show came about. It makes me wish we had someone like Tomino here.
-Billy Bat. Another one that’s pretty indescribable. It jumps back and forth throughout history, and is comprised of a number of shorter storylines connected by the “Billy Bat” cartoon character. (“Are you the good one, or the bad one?”)

Don C.

[samurainoir]

Not really manga, but from your reading list, it sounds like you would dig the work of Korean American cartoonist Derek Kirk Kim.
index

[samurainoir]

The Toronto Library System is pretty great for manga these days. You can even go online and reserve books quite easily. The only drawback for the multi-volume epics is that they will NEVER come in proper reading order if you reserve them all at once, so there is a wait time between reserving each one, waiting for it to come in to pick it up and read, and reserving the next one and waiting for it to come in to pick up and read.

There are also websites which are in the "grey" when it comes to scanslations. Manga that is not available here in translated book form, but they are taken down when they do finally get published in English (although there are literally hundreds that never do make it here).

In the vein of Robert Crumb, Chester Brown and Joe Matt autobiography, The Disappearance Diary is a fascinating account of one of Japan's foremost "Lolita" Manga creators descent into alcoholism and homelessness, which is rendered in an oddly whimsical manner. It's certainly an interesting juxtiposition. It's "done in one" volume.

Do you like new wave Japanese Horror films like Ringu or Pulse? The closest I can think of in terms of the surreal atmospheric horror of Charles Burns is a series like GYO. Three volumes. "Night of the Mechanical Zombie Fish"

[Brazoo]

That's too bad - Gagetown, are you in the armed forces? Is there anything in particular I can grab for you? Any autographs/sketches or anything?

Recommending is always tough I guess. The only superhero comics I read these days are collections of classics. I love Jack Kirby, Jack Cole, Will Eisner, Harvey Kurtzman and a bunch of the original Mad artists. I'm a HUGE fan of E.C. Segar's Popeye. One of my favorite graphic novels is "From Hell" - Eddie Campbell's other stuff is great too. I like everything by Joe Matt, Chester Brown, Hernandez Bros., Charles Burns, Chris Ware. I keep meaning to pick up that new Al Columbia book because he's great.

I'm self employed these days, so my budget for books is much tighter then I'd like, which is why starting to pick up a collection of Manga with 30 volumes is a little daunting. Maybe there's a smaller more concise collection of stories you guys could recommend to get me started?

I've got Yoshihiro Tatsumi's "The Push Man and Other Stories" and I liked that, but I didn't run out and grab more of his work after reading it for whatever reason. I do like "Parasyte" for it's strangeness and should probably pick up some more volumes at some point. I think you and Samurai both recommended "Lone Wolf and Cub" which sounds appealing because I'm a huge fan of Akira Kurosawa films.

I love classic Japanese cinema, but I've always remained pretty ignorant about Japanese comics. I think part of the problem is that I can't get past my bias that all the art looks the same to me. Another unfair bias I have to admit to, I'm always slightly concerned that any Manga I pick up is going to turn weird sexually. Some part of my brain can't help but associate Menga with pornographic Sailor Moon weirdness. I'm not even particularly prudish - most sexual content is probably fine - but cartoon pornography just doesn't appeal to me.

[ctc]

>I hope both of you will be at The Toronto Comics Arts Festival this year!

AAAAGGGHHH! I'll be in Gagetown finishing my course at that time.

>What's a good story I should pick up that won't require me to buy tons and tons of books?

Fear not the ton of books; for it means more reading.... As for stuff I'd recommend, that's a toughie. I know what I like, but I don't know where your tastes run. What sort of stuff do you like?

Don C.

[Brazoo]

Brazoo and Don, I hope both of you will be at The Toronto Comics Arts Festival this year!

For sure! We should try to meet up and maybe grab some beers after the show and fistfight about Pekar Vs. Crumb and Marvels Vs. Watchmen! I already have plans to go on Saturday, but I might go Sunday too.

Just let me know and I'll PM you guys my cell number!

I also need you guys to school me on some decent Manga. The only one I've ever gotten into was Parasyte. I read the first 3 books and really liked the twisted horror mixed with the ditko/spiderman feel of that one. What's a good story I should pick up that won't require me to buy tons and tons of books?