AnyOne Know What's Up With Namor ?

[Earth 2 Chris]

I've always suspected that the reason some artists do this is 'cos they're drawing in a more realistic way, nd it's a lot easier to do so from a model rather than make a character whole cloth. (Noticed it way back with "Marvels," when you could name almost every "actor" in the book. "HEY! Reed Richards is the Professor!")

Yes, Ross kind of started it. But at least The Professor fits Reed, as did Timothy Dalton for Tony. I never saw Namor as a DeNiro type, and I doubt few did either.

As much as I admire Ross' work, his popularity started several trends in comic art I don't care for. The dynamic art form of black and white images with color added may have been lost thanks to all of this, and everyone going overboard with their Photoshop filters.

Chris

[samurainoir]

"Casting" for comic book character is nothing new though.

Guy Gardner was based on Martin Milner from Adam 12 according to artist Gil Kane...




David Mazzucchelli used Gregory Peck in Batman Year 1...

[samurainoir]

Even Kirby!

[60'schild]

"Influenced by" or "similar to" is one thing, but it is quite another when you look at a modern comic and see what appears to be a direct likeness of someone there...

It's a matter of degree and ... unfortunately, frequency, IMHO.

[samurainoir]

"Influenced by" or "similar to" is one thing, but it is quite another when you look at a modern comic and see what appears to be a direct likeness of someone there...

It's a matter of degree and ... unfortunately, frequency, IMHO.

Look at the images... there really is no doubt there that Gil Kane is drawing a direct likeness of Martin Milner, David Muzzicelli is drawing Gregory Peck and that Kirby is drawing Steranko in every panel these characters aren't wearing their masks. Even as a teenager, I had seen enough Gregory Peck films to identify him in Batman Year 1 when I picked up those issues in the same way I would later recognize the older Gregory Peck in Alex Ross' Kingdom Come. This isn't a fad!

As for "influence" and "similar", I'm saying it's not just a difference between modern and vintage comics. I really don't think anyone here was able to tell that Maleev was using Deniro before the reveal. Certainly there was enough ambiguity for a Joe Pesci callout.

[samurainoir]

Something else to consider... swiping isn't limited to Photos found on the internet, just as "laziness" isn't a modern invention. Vintage comics are full of swipes with artists swiping from other artists, from Bob Kane to Rich Buckler.

Hal Foster original


Bob Kane swipe


Rich Bucker swipe.


Jack Kirby original.



It's really no different than Greg Land tracing the Celebrity/Porn Star du jour is it?


Laziness isn't a fad, it's just laziness and artist have been doing it for centuries.

[60'schild]

Sorry .. you can spend the rest of the day posting vintage examples (and I could counter with a zillion modern ones from the "Swipe File" column on Comic Book resources... but we'd be exactly at the same place.

I still feel it's all extent and degree... My eyes tell me that the likenesses are far too similar now compared to back then and far more frequent.. (but what do I know, I've only been reading comics since '66?? LOL)

[samurainoir]

Also keep in mind we are talking about two issues that operlap....

"Tracing" and "Casting".

As far as I can tell from a distance, Alex Ross, Kirby, Gil Kane, Muzzicelli "Cast".

Greg Land, Rich Buckler, Greg Land, Rob Liefeld, Bob Kane "Trace".

Bryan Hitch both "Casts" and "Traces".

[Earth 2 Chris]

Yeah, casting goes way back. Kane also based Hal Jordan on Paul Newman, although I never really saw the influence much beyond the first few years. Milner isn't one I knew about, but it seems obvious now.

But in those cases, Kane created those characters. Mallev suddenly deciding ol' Flat-top Namor is supposed to look like a Goodfella is just wrong, IMHO.

Not only did Mazzucheli use Peck for Bruce Wayne, Ross did too somewhat, in Kingdom Come.

Good call on the "casts" and "traces" list. I've read that Rich Buckler is kind of notorious for swiping. I had no idea as a kid.

Chris

[samurainoir]

Sorry .. you can spend the rest of the day posting vintage examples (and I could counter with a zillion modern ones from the "Swipe File" column on Comic Book resources... but we'd be exactly at the same place.

I still feel it's all extent and degree... My eyes tell me that the likenesses are far too similar now compared to back then and far more frequent.. (but what do I know, I've only been reading comics since '66?? LOL)

I don't think the the point of simply saying "yes" and "no" back and forth. We're having a discussion and in doing so, we clarify points and positions.

I believe you are correct in your assertions that "Casting" is more noticeable now, and it has everything to do with contemporary printing technology vs ink blobs on newsprint, and our oversaturated celebrity culture. Alex Ross has in fact built a career on increased versimilitude with his painted images of Superheroes (as Don pointed out in terms of the more "realistic" art), this would not have been possible in the sixties outside of the covers.

I'm simply saying that "Casting" is not some new innovation and that there are many examples out there where direct likeness are used. Particularly when you start to realize how often an artist will "Cast" himself or the people around him. Frazetta himself is recognizable in much of his artwork, including his comic stuff. There's no doubt that Dave Stevens resemblance to Cliff Secord is not coincidental (and Betty Page as well), ditto Matt Wagner and Kevin Matchstick from Mage, John Cassaday as the Drummer in Planetary etc etc.

But this is all about increased access and information technology that is now available to us at our fingertips. You would have to have a huge library of magazines and comics to have been able to catch all the swipes back in the day.

If I failed to make my point, I would not have been able find any vintage likenesses at all. Not volume of likenesses.

But Tracing, Swiping, general laziness... as old as time itself. Not a contemporary thing at all. Whether you are using paper and a lightbox or photoshop, it was as prevalent back then as it ever was today.

[The Toyroom]

Yeah tracing and swiping have been around since the Golden Age but that was more within the industry, so to speak. Yes, Gil Kane may have "cast" Martin Milner as Guy Gardner but he was still drawing the character from scratch, freehand, whatever you want to call it. The resemblence is there but it's still all "Sugarlips" Kane....

The problem I have with a lot of these modern guys, take Greg Land, for example, is they're not "paying homage" to a fellow artist by swiping or even using them as an influence....they're going outside the industry and grabbing whatever porno mag or People magazine and blatantly tracing/lightboxing the images. And when the majority of their pencils in an issue can be sourced from somewhere else, that's pathetic.....

[samurainoir]

But in those cases, Kane created those characters. Mallev suddenly deciding ol' Flat-top Namor is supposed to look like a Goodfella is just wrong, IMHO.

Bendis' script called for Namor to look a bit down on his luck to be resorting to this, but given Maleev's penchant for drawing more gritty "street level stuff", that was taking it way too far.

Dodson's got him looking more like the Imperious Rex of old...

Not only did Mazzucheli use Peck for Bruce Wayne, Ross did too somewhat, in Kingdom Come.

Looking like he stepped right out of Old Gringo!

I've read that Rich Buckler is kind of notorious for swiping.

I wish I can remember which artist it was who was his assistant back in the day. I had read in an interview with that artist, that Buckler kept a huge filing cabinet filled with reference material to swipe from (mostly Kirby) and that part of the assistants job was to comb through comics and magazines looking for swipe material. Of course now google image search has replaced the big metal filing cabinets.

[samurainoir]

Yeah tracing and swiping have been around since the Golden Age but that was more within the industry, so to speak. Yes, Gil Kane may have "cast" Martin Milner as Guy Gardner but he was still drawing the character from scratch, freehand, whatever you want to call it. The resemblence is there but it's still all "Sugarlips" Kane....

As was Kirby's very distinct style. Dave Stevens might have been drawing Betty Page, but there is no mistaking a Dave Stevens woman, even if he's using photos as reference.

I know most folks aren't fond of Deadato's style but I think he belongs in this camp as well, unless there are direct photographic tracings from him? As far as I can tell, that is Tommy Lee Jones, but through the filter of Deadato's own current heavy-blacks "noir" style.

Looking at how process heavy Alex Ross' stuff is, you can't really say he's guilty of being lazy. The reliance on photo reference starts to kick in, but you can accuse his main influence Norman Rockwell of the same things. At the end of the day, it's distracting that the Professor from Gilligan's Island is there, but that art is all Ross and you can pick him out of a line-up of other artists that come from a photorealist tradition. Plus the companies are paying him the big bucks to do this because the fans lap it up.

Things start to get fuzzy when we arrive at Bryan Hitch. There is no mistaking his stuff, and we all know he was originally an Alan Davis clone. But now he's managing to trace Sam Jackson and meld it with a more detailed realistic style that still has that bit of Alan Davis in it. At the end of the day, that is still his own popular style even if he's sometimes a tracer. I can only imagine the kinds of pressure he must be under to produce the detailed work that the fans expect, while everyone is yelling at him about his chronic lateness. Here is a guy who is probably better off on special projects instead of stepping up to the "monthly" plate time and again.

The problem I have with a lot of these modern guys, take Greg Land, for example, is they're not "paying homage" to a fellow artist by swiping or even using them as an influence....they're going outside the industry and grabbing whatever porno mag or People magazine and blatantly tracing/lightboxing the images. And when the majority of their pencils in an issue can be sourced from somewhere else, that's pathetic....

The big problem with most of Land's stuff now is the tracing is overpowering what style he had been exhibiting earlier (in his Crossgen stuff). In Ultimate Power, Ultimage Fantastic Four, X-Men etc you can tell this guys doesn't really do much in the way of Casting because he's tracing a different person each time he draws someone like Sue Storm or Emma Frost. It's not like he's using Pamela Anderson every time he's drawing a particular character so that you can say his Sue Storm is Pam. He's always "off model" these days more often than not, and his storytelling has really suffered. I can never tell who is doing what in the pages of Uncanny X-Men and always pray that the next issue is a Dodson issue. I understand deadline pressures and shortcuts, particularly since he seems to be drawing casts of thousands in everything he does. Maybe this is a guy who is better off not doing the monthly grind and going back to his earlier process.

[Earth 2 Chris]

The first thing I ever saw Land on was the original Nightwing mini from the mid 90s. He swiped quite a bit from Alan Davis on that one, esp on Batman and Alfred.

I think that's the difference for sure. Guys like Gil Kane cast actors, friends, etc as the characters, but they didn't redraw photo stills like they were working on a TV series adaptation.

I wish I can remember which artist it was who was his assistant back in the day.

George Perez started out as Buckler's assistant. I read an article in the last BackIssue that David Micheline quite the "Star Hunters" comic series over Buckler blatantly swiping the main character's spaceship design from a then-current Saturday morning cartoon.

Chris

[ctc]

>I'm saying it's not just a difference between modern and vintage comics.

....although it was less prevalent in the older books. Probably not by design; but owing to the insane schedules the artists had to keep up. The cartoonists would slip into their default mode a lot more often.... rendering each character as a more standard template instead of an individual design. The newer, more realistic artists can get more time to put their stuff together.

You see it a lot with the folks who do one-off paintings, such as for novel covers. You can usually guess who was the inspiration for each. (Or; if you know such things, which live model posed for it.)

>(and Betty Page as well),

Oh yeah, the Rocketeer. That was actually an in-joke that was part of the story.

Don C.