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That was the time Robin broke his arm wasn't it? Batman wore it to make sure no one would figure out both Robin and Dick Grayson had broken arms and put two and two together. Yeah,like he's the only one running around Gotham with a broken arm.
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Here's a link to a really good column analysis of what happened with Final Crisis:
Comic Book Resources > Permanent Damage - 2-11-2009Comment
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>Here's a link to a really good column analysis of what happened with Final Crisis:
Hmmmm.... there are some interesting points there; but I think it's all being overthought. To use the terminology; I think "mad" and "big" ideas are pretty much the same thing. It's a question of where you go with it, and it's all based around the concept of "event." You start with a comic; and no matter what genre, you've got a lot of "-isms" to deal with. These come about in a lot of different ways, but they're all an accepted part of your medium and genre. Superheroes come with a whole schload of 'em.
*Such as costumes: Originally superheroes wore different coloured tights so you could tell them apart. Capes were good for telling where the hero was no matter how close or far your shot, and tights happened partly 'cos Superman (the prototype) was modelled after strongmen of the day, and partly 'cos it's a lot easier to draw a painted nekkid dude than worry about folds, textures, etc.
So you've GOT to deal with these things. Most of the time they're accpeted/ignored. (Nobody wonders why Clark without glasses is indistinguishable from Clark with.) This works pretty good with kids, who don't worry about that sort of thing, but during the 80's, you started getting a lot of older fans who DID wonder about stuff like that.
So now you've got to deal with it. Crisis (the original) was one way: polishing up the whole thing, altering the setting to bring it more in line with contemporary thinking. Dark Knight (the original) was another; working backwards into the character and demonstrating the process IN CONTINUITY that led to the "-isms." Or you can go all Watchmen on 'em; both lauding in and laughing at the "-isms."
And for the reader it's a kick. It's new, different, and expands the horizons a little bit. But eventually this TOO becomes old hat. IN the 90's they did the same trick, but visually: bigger heroes, more dramatic shots, poses, poses, poses.... And eventually this also wore thin. Which led us to now: non-events. It LOOKS like the old earth-shaking stuff, but it's not made to last. Sorta like the old 60's DC "shock covers." Yeah, Superman is throwing Jimmy off a cliff, Wonder Woman is turned into a gorrilla, and Lois Dumps Supes yet again; but we all know it'll be fixed by the end of the story. (Nowadays those stories happen to take 20+ issues to resolve.)
So comics have come full circle. Again. Even the deconstructionism of the 80's was a redo of the "hero with problems" schtick that made Marvel back in the 60's: taking a superhero and working backwards through their life to show an aspect that hadn't been dealt with before. That being, what it would be like if superheroes existed in the real world. (Which I recall was one of the thoughts that led to the Watchman.)
Don C.Comment
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No, I think that the two are different. Perhaps the writer's choice of "mad ideas" is misleading here.
I'm taking the concept of "mad ideas" as this: The writer has a number of new premise, new worlds, new sets of characters. His story contains a number of plotlines and character interactions. He literally just starts the story at some point, goes in scattershot with concepts bursting everywhere like fireworks, jumps from character to character, from plotline to plotline, never really filling in the blanks between these events, leaving a great deal for the imagination of the reader to fill in. Background details, places, machines, etc. are not essential to the story the writer is telling, thus many of those points are left to either the artist or the reader to sort out. This is what Grant Morrison does with his storytelling in Final Crisis. The reader was presented with numerous new characters, ideas, etc and Morrison just assumed that if you were buying the book, you could just make it fit together in your head, sort of like assembling a jigsaw puzzle in your mind- but you the reader are required to create your own pieces for those that are missing. For example, in Final Crisis, little is explained about why the New Gods are doing what they're doing, what happened individually to characters as the world is taken over, what happened to Batman exactly. There is a skip between these happenings, and you either must fill in what you think happened or just accept that it did. A,c,Q,a,A, X, b,C
The "big idea" concept is different in that the total package is laid out for the reader from start to finish. Issue one leads into issue two leads into issue three. Sure plotlines from issue one may not be explained until issue twelve, but they ARE explained. You are shown what happened. A new character appears, but at some point you are given the background necessary to understand who & why they are. In Crisis on Infinite Earths the Monitors appear, the heroes teamup, worlds die, the Anti-Monitor is defeated and the worlds merge into new Earth. A,B,C,D,E.
As Grant said in his article, the problem lies in that while the "mad idea event" method appeals to many, the "big idea event" is the accepted way most people expect to have a story presented. And while the mad idea format may work very well for a contained universe story such as Doom Patrol, it does not play well in the world of Superman & Batman. The main point there being that EVERYTHING in the Doom Patrol book is presented in the same fashion, they rarely if ever crossed over to mainstream DC, and people who read that book expect it to be done that way, they are used to it.
Not so with Superman or Batman. These characters are nearly always presented in the normal fashion: A to B to C. And by expecting readers to follow the story in a manner they are unaccustomed to caused havoc with the system.
Look at it this way: suppose you are a big fan of Agatha Christie mysteries. Imagine a Poirot series of novels in which Book one takes place in France. Book two suddenly finds Poirot investigating a murder on the moon. Book three introduces five new detectives each investigating a different crime. Book four is about Poirot meeting Abraham Lincoln. Book five goes back to the new detectives, three of them are killed off, and the other two leave to find Poirot and are not seen again in the series. Book Six is the conclusion and takes place 100 years in the future with descendants of Poirot solving the crime. Oh, and there are three other novels that you are told you'll need to buy and read in order to understand what happens between each chapter, however only one of those really helps fill in details, the other two are just filler, but you won't know which ones you need to have read until you read the last sentence of Book six.
Now there are some people out there who would think this really cool and innovative, but I'm guessing the majority of Christie fans would be appaled at the treatment of their hero. Maybe this is an extreme example, but I think it kinda illustrates the issue.Comment
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^^^ Interesting Points,.. & I agree with the Majority of them.
I guess in the End,.. Thats why Final Crisis kinda Cheesed me Off.
You are buying a Book. or Books.. these things,.. or atleast this event 3.99 a pop, + tax for 7 books. I wanna READ a story,.. Not buy something, then read something HalfAss, & then Ultimately make up Half the Story in my Head,.. or How my Mind perceived it. Why even Spend the Cash, if all one has to do , is just make a Story up in thier Minds.
imo,.. For the Most Part , I believe Morrision is an Idiot,.. a Victim of his own "Auesomeness" because Whoever out there keeps Blowing Smoke Up his Arse..
With this brand of Writing style, in another 10 yrs,.. a Comicbook is gonna Cost 9.99 . & Guess what ? When you buy the Book,.. it will be completely Blank, & you the Buyer gets to make up the Story, as you flip threw the Blank book.
... The Original Knight ..., Often Imitated, However Never Duplicated. The 1st Knight in Customs.
always trading for Hot Toys Figures .
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Yeah I can see that one coming:
You open the first page and there in the center of an otherwise blank page it says:
EVERYBODY FIGHTS SOMEBODY ELSE...TALK AMONGST YOURSELVES.
And the rest is blank pages ...except for the bottom of the very last page where it says "TO BE CONTINUED".
The following week DC releases the red printing variant. The money coming in would be like buttah!Comment
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>I'm taking the concept of "mad ideas" as this
Hmmmm.... I think based on the article you've got them backwards; but that's okay, it's the principle that matters.
I kinda thinkt hey're both essentialy the same technique; but one works backwards into the continuity, the "mad idea" where you add new twists to what's already there. The other works outwards, the "big idea," by expanding what's already there, adding to it, showing more of the world/universe/multiverse and how it all intermingles. But ultimately you're trying to extrapolate a new... place I guess, for the reader. Same setting, same characters, but something fundamentally different for them.
>suppose you are a big fan of Agatha Christie mysteries.
....which is a great example! Ultimately there's no REAL reason why Poirot couldn't end up on the moon. But given the setting (and the lack of any sort of steampunk technology) you'd have a helluva job explaining it in continuity. You'd hafta really rework things to get to the point where the readers wouldn't see Poirot in a bubble helmet as a painful abberation.
>And by expecting readers to follow the story in a manner they are unaccustomed to caused havoc with the system.
YES! ABSOLUTELY correct! THIS is what I was getting at with the whole "how much of the audience goes into the story" stuff I as going on about a few posts back! The trick to good writing is to lead the audience by the nose without them KNOWING you are. They draw their own conclusions without realizing those are the ones you want them to. But to do that you have to know your audience, 'cos you've got to anticipate their reactions to your story. And conversely, you have to be able to seed the mind with the sort of conclusions that'll lead to the crop you want.
THIS is where I think the disconnect is happening with all the non-events: the writers are just asssuming that you'll get it. No matter what they do. AND they seem to assume you're gonna buy all the tie-in issues as well.
Don C.Comment
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See, that's the issue that has happened with a book like Final Crisis. There is no REAL reason why Batman is stuck wherever he is (and no none is sure- some people are saying he's in the past, some are saying future, some are saying alternate Earth, and some have said it's not really Batman they're just trying to make you think it is). Because it just HAPPENS, no explanation, no matter how out of character.
The writer is so full of himself and his Grand Design that the mere reader should just be in such awe of his Art that we'll fall over backward. Reminds me of those old cartoons with the Art Critic praising the merits of some avant-garde modern sculpture, only to have the janitor walk up and empty the trash can they've been staring at with awe.
In this case, because Morrison has produced great work in the past (and he has), both he & DC Editorial just think that this is a modern masterpiece. I think they both fail to realize that his great work was in contained enviorment books like Animal Man, Doom Patrol, & All-Star Superman. Which is kind of like saying Michaelango was a great painter, so if Michaelangelo drew Superman it would be a masterpiece. Or that Jack Kirby was a great comic book artist, he should paint the Sistine Chapel. It sounds interesting, but I'm betting the results would be less than expected. (Although I AM picturing Kirby's Darkseid reaching out fingertip to fingertip to Orion on the ceiling!)
I think even now DC believes that well, if you don't get it now, you WILL get it down the road. And that is NOT what the majority of the buying public wants or needs right now.
Now before you point out that hey, the book sold through the roof, I'll agree on that point. But #1- an EVENT book with such hype WILL sell like crazy anyway. That's why they do them. #2- The expectations were high, and it wasn't until you had invested a couple issues into it before you realized that this was a rambling mess. & #3- Believe it or not, I still expected a payoff in Issue 6, an explanatiion or wrap-up, which I got, but in an incoherant manner that required I go out and track down another $20.00 worth of books looking for an answer. Plus I ordered the series 3-4 months before it came out. Non-returnable books- so how many copies are still available at retailer level. Quite a few I'd imagine...I saw no announcements of sell-outs and 2nd, 3rd printings such as was the case with the Sinestro Corps. So was it successful for DC? No doubt. Was it successful for Joe the Comic Book Dealer? Not so certain...plus let's add in the P.O.'d reader factor for Joe, too.
And by the P.O'd factor, I mean this: Joe now has to deal with a certain batch of his clientel that are angry with the way the series played out (and they are out there...talk to your local dealer, you'll hear about it). Yes, there are a group of fans who liked it and were ok with it. But there were probably more that didn't and those fans will be thinking twice before ordering another series Event like this one. Some will be dropping titles because of it....there are MANY fans upset because DC's plan with Batman has caused them to cancel books like Nightwing & Birds of Prey. Will they be picking up whatever book DC has plans to replace them with..I'm not sue. I collected BOP and did not order the Oracle mini-series. No, those books weren't top of the line sellers, but they fall into that category of solid books that a retailer can count on selling every month regardless. They spike here & there, but x copies are the norm, month after month. And retailers NEED more of those books, believe me. I worked in a comic shop, and it was better to KNOW you had 50 Batman comics sold each month than to GUESS you could sell 150 Event books. Remember, a retailer has to order his books 2-3 months out from delivery. And it's his cash on the line until the book sells. Those back issue bins are lost money.
Anyway, Joe the Comic Book Dealer now has a few less customers to deal with, less cash coming in. We saw this happen in fact with Marvel's Amazing Spider-Man revamp last year. And we saw this come back and bite retailers a second time last month with the Obama variant, which even big retailers had a hard time getting, mostly because they had cut back orders on Spider-Man due to decreased demand, again wrought by an ill-concieved EVENT. So they lost money...Marvel gained in the short term, they will lose in the long run. And the only way they see to not lose is to continue the event books, hoping to catch those lost fans back again. DC is doing the same thing now with Batman, watch if sales on Batman & Detective don't drop. This is an event that has been done before anyway...how many quarter boxes are filled with KNIGHTFALL back issues? So there will be Another Crisis next Summer to try and recoup the losses, believe me.
I think honestly, especially in this economy, the wise thing to do is settle into a core group of books, limit specials to things that truly are, and allow your titlesto rebuild an audience. Give the collecting mentality time to re-trench itself, get readers used to buying Batman every 3rd Wednesday and Spider-man every 4th Wednesday, with a mix of 2-3 part tales and the stand alone issues more prevalent. Get some solid creative teams on the books who will stay there for an extended period, and just do some solid storytelling , give the readers what they expect. When I pay to see a movie or buy a novel, I expect a beginning, middle, and satisfying conclusion. Am I willing to then invest in a series of books, a regular TV series, a trilogy of films? Yes, I am. But the bottom line is that you must give the majority of people what they want or they will leave. You must give it to them when they want it, not when you are ready to unveil you're big design. The comics companies should take an example page from the Hollywood types they so adore. Look at a series like Heroes that lost so much of it's audience by delays & changes from the established pattern of the first season. The creators got too "big for their britches". X-Files is another good example...artsy stuff that always promised a payoff but never delivered, eventually people got tired of waiting for an answer. Yet then look at a series such as Buffy or CSI or House that go on for extended runs-why? Because while they add bits & pieces to the background of the chartacters as they go along, the main show is basically the same formula every week. Then when an event happens like a character leaving or dying, it becomes so much bigger because the audience has invested their time & interest in that character, not because someone told them it was a big event.
Sorry, got really long-winded and rambling here!Last edited by johnnystorm; Feb 13, '09, 9:19 AM.Comment
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>Because it just HAPPENS, no explanation, no matter how out of character.
There's a thin line between "wow, I didn't see THAT coming! KEWEL!!!" and "they did WHAT?!?! That's STUPID!" The difference is entirely in the mind of the reader. That's why you gotta know your readers.
>The writer is so full of himself and his Grand Design that the mere reader should just be in such awe of his Art that we'll fall over backward.
Well.... sometimes I think it's 'cos they really don't care. It's just a job so they phone it in.
>I think even now DC believes that well, if you don't get it now, you WILL get it down the road.
....or they don't care 'cos they know folks will buy "Final Crisis 23; really, REALLY final this time. We mean it."
>Yes, there are a group of fans who liked it and were ok with it. But there were probably more that didn't and those fans will be thinking twice before ordering another series Event like this one. Some will be dropping titles because of it.
THIS I wonder about, especially when I see how many people online will complain up a storm about how much they hate a book.... THAT THEY KEEP BUYING! Inertia is a powerful thing.
>We saw this happen in fact with Marvel's Amazing Spider-Man revamp last year.
We saw it back in the 90's; with all the designer comics and pseudo-events. I think every comic shop ON EARTH has at least five boxes full of "The Death of Superman."
Inertia is a powerful thing....
>And the only way they see to not lose is to continue the event books, hoping to catch those lost fans back again.
I think part of the problem is that Marvel and DC are both parts of huge entertainment conglomerates, and the books are a small part of the empire. The movies and toys make more money, so they matter more than the comics. So the comic guys are left to their own ends, so they putz around until their big book deal, or they get in s scriptwriters for a big movie company. Goes with my suspicion that it's just a job for the folks doing it.
>the wise thing to do is settle into a core group of books, limit specials to things that truly are, and allow your titlesto rebuild an audience.
They will. The titles of both companies expand and contract. Check out the subscription forms in an early 70's comic as opposed to a late 70's comic.
>Get some solid creative teams on the books who will stay there for an extended period, and just do some solid storytelling
That's a biggie; but since the designer comics wave of the early 90's nobody wants to do this. It's too tempting to farm the hot guys out to as many books as you can. It's THEIR name that sells it, not the character's. Which is stupid, but there you go.
>the bottom line is that you must give the majority of people what they want or they will leave.
That's another confounding variable, since I think most fans want to be catered to even though they're gonna get bored of the same old same old. They want that sense of discovery, surprise and wonder that drew them to the character in the first place but are completely unwilling to leave the path so much as a step to get it.
Inertia is a powerful thing.
>artsy stuff that always promised a payoff but never delivered, eventually people got tired of waiting for an answer.
THANK YOU! You're like, the only other person I've ever met who's said anything engative about the X-Files.
Don C.Comment
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I was a huge X-Files fan, loved the show, watched it all the time. but I really liked the single episode Monster-Of -The-Week shows. The Secret conspiracy episodes were always a drain for me, especially as I said, they would tease a lot of answers were coming, but invariably just raised more questions. Or would run a whole show then at the end kind of say, well, did that really happen or did they imagine it?
Meh.Comment
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>I really liked the single episode Monster-Of -The-Week shows. The Secret conspiracy episodes were always a drain for me, especially as I said, they would tease a lot of answers were coming, but invariably just raised more questions.
See, that kinda ties into the comic book thing. The problem with the "secret conspiracy" episodes was that you KNEW they weren't gonna go anywhere. They couldn't, or it'd end the show. Same with the comic book non-events. You KNOW Batman isn't gonna really die 'cos he's their top seller.
Don C.Comment
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Remember the good ol' DC days? When stories were contained in a single issue? Heck, sometimes there were 2 or 3 complete stories in each issue! It was rare (and to be honest I can't even think of an early example) for Superman's stories in Action Comics to cross over into Superman comics or World's Finest or whatever let alone cross with another character's title altogether (like Flash or Batman, etc). Even continued stories (multi-issue storylines) were uncommon in DC books. There were no such things as mini or maxi-series. The biggest event was the JLA/JSA annual crossover and sometimes that wasn't even more than one issue. Annuals used to have classic reprints and later on new stories that were SPECIAL stories or events. When a character teamed up with another it was something to look forward to, something uncommon. It's a shame what things have come to when you have seen what used to be.
RichComment
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