Retro Rayner

[SciFiGuyLA]

The logic is quite simple, actually. Exclusives don't count. It's just that simple. You see, the whole reason for doing exclusives is so the manufacturer can offer figures (typically, but not always, in smaller numbers) that they already know would not sell well at retail. John, Guy, Kyle and modern Sinestro would likely be peg warmers at TRU. The one and only reason we even have them is BECAUSE they are exclusives. Besides, exclusives are bonus items. When Doc said "6 waves with 4 figures per wave" he did not include the exclusives in that commitment of 24 figures. We should all think of the GL exclusives as the optional "cherry on top", totally and completely separate from the standard waves.

Now, the figures you mention, Lou (Robin, Joker, Hawkman, etc.) are high demand figures. Those subject are going to be able to carry their weight at retail. Under normal circumstances, there's no way Mattel is going to make an exclusive out of a Joker figure. Nor would you want them too. Imagine all the additional headaches we'd all have to suffer through trying to nab Jokers and Robins from Matty Collector! Believe me, you want such high demand figures to be produced at regular production run numbers and made available from multiple sources, not the exclusive run numbers and available only in one place.

Think of it like this. Making the Joker a Matty Collector exclusive would be like trying to book U2 to play at your local community center. Putting Kyle Rayner in a retail wave would be like trying to book your cousin's Journey cover band to play at Yankee stadium.

So, if Robin and Joker are in such high demand, they never would be chosen to be exclusives, right? Therefore, the GLs didn't take anything away. That's the logic.

Of course, the cancellation changes the situation. Now, the most likely scenario of ever seeing ANY Retro Action figures produced is through Matty Collector. But the cancellation was a decision made AFTER the decision to make the GL exclusives. Not to mention that Doc (or Joe. I can't remember) said the original plan was for more than 4 GL exclusives. The pre-cancellation plan was that we would get the 4 GLs AND Robin, Joker, Hawkman, etc.

At the end of the day, I guess this is just one of those glass half full/glass half empty kind of debates. You see the GLs as taking away from the Retro Action line, whereas I see them as adding to the Retro Action line. Different strokes for different folks.

[LOU]

The logic is quite simple, actually. Exclusives don't count. It's just that simple. You see, the whole reason for doing exclusives is so the manufacturer can offer figures (typically, but not always, in smaller numbers) that they already know would not sell well at retail. John, Guy, Kyle and modern Sinestro would likely be peg warmers at TRU. The one and only reason we even have them is BECAUSE they are exclusives. Besides, exclusives are bonus items. When Doc said "6 waves with 4 figures per wave" he did not include the exclusives in that commitment of 24 figures. We should all think of the GL exclusives as the optional "cherry on top", totally and completely separate from the standard waves.

Now, the figures you mention, Lou (Robin, Joker, Hawkman, etc.) are high demand figures. Those subject are going to be able to carry their weight at retail. Under normal circumstances, there's no way Mattel is going to make an exclusive out of a Joker figure. Nor would you want them too. Imagine all the additional headaches we'd all have to suffer through trying to nab Jokers and Robins from Matty Collector! Believe me, you want such high demand figures to be produced at regular production run numbers and made available from multiple sources, not the exclusive run numbers and available only in one place.

Think of it like this. Making the Joker a Matty Collector exclusive would be like trying to book U2 to play at your local community center. Putting Kyle Rayner in a retail wave would be like trying to book your cousin's Journey cover band to play at Yankee stadium.

So, if Robin and Joker are in such high demand, they never would be chosen to be exclusives, right? Therefore, the GLs didn't take anything away. That's the logic.

Of course, the cancellation changes the situation. Now, the most likely scenario of ever seeing ANY Retro Action figures produced is through Matty Collector. But the cancellation was a decision made AFTER the decision to make the GL exclusives. Not to mention that Doc (or Joe. I can't remember) said the original plan was for more than 4 GL exclusives. The pre-cancellation plan was that we would get the 4 GLs AND Robin, Joker, Hawkman, etc.

At the end of the day, I guess this is just one of those glass half full/glass half empty kind of debates. You see the GLs as taking away from the Retro Action line, whereas I see them as adding to the Retro Action line. Different strokes for different folks.

Hi SciFiGuyLA,
Well technically that makes sense, but it's also a very convoluted answer. First of all, I never suggested that Robin, Joker, etc. be released as "exclusives." I am saying there should have been NO exclusives if 4 GL's was the best they had to offer. The problem, once again, is very simple. There were Mattel resources wasted making these GL's (exclusives or not) that could've been used for the other characters. I am a collector of over 25 years so I am well aware of what an exclusive is and you described it perfectly above. Having said that, your words, however, have nothing to do with the fact that (this is getting old repeating myself) at the end of the day, this collection will be 25% GL figures. So yes, I get why they were exclusives, but they were still manufactured. My view is simple, they shouldn't have been. Exclusives or not, there should not be a Guy Gardner before a Robin. Different strokes for different folks indeed and if some of you are truly content with what this completed collection will look like and are perfectly happy without Robin or Joker...great, I'm happy for you all. As I said however, your remarks, although 100% correct, do not and will never change the fact that these GLs were made before they should've been. It was far too early in the line to start messing around with needless characters and like it or not, Guy Garnder and Yellow Sinestro are not "needed" characters like Robin and Joker. So yes, I very much see the GL's as taking away from the line because...well they did! I still don't see how the fact that they were exclusives means they weren't made in place of other characters. There's no disputing this. If the line ends as it is now...you will not have a Robin or Joker but you will have all these GLs. So there's no way you can say they didn't take away from the line now that it's over. Of course they did, they were made before other characters that should've been made first...kind of like striking while the iron is hot. The problem here is everyone was a bit too optimistic that this line would go on for years and years, and if it did...then I could see why they wouldn't care. But I didn't see it that way. I had a feeling, like SO MANY times before in other lines, that the line wouldn't last for years and years so my thinking was that Mattel should pump out the main characters FIRST, before the line got cancelled, and then, if Mattel did enjoy another three years of life to the line, maybe then start talking about these other characters. But sorry, you don't offer 4 Green Lanterns (6 actually) before you finish producing the staple characters. That's all there is to it and I can't explain it any other way. As long as there is no Robin/Joker/etc, then these GL's wasted resources that were quite obviously (and just as I suspected months ago) not going to be available forever. So now here we are, the line is over and the EXACT thing I predicted would happen, has happened. Again, this is now indisputable.

It's like this, Crayola makes a box of crayons with every color crayon but red. Instead they offer magenta. Then Crayola goes under and a red crayon is never made. How could you even remotely say that the magenta crayon wasn't made in place of the red one, regardless of what it's sold as, exclusive or otherwise? Of course it was! This is where some of you guys completely lose me with your logic. In this example, it was clearly a very poor decision to omit a popular color like red in favor of a less popular color like magenta at the risk of the red crayon never being made. Well as far as I'm concerned, all 4 of these GL exclusives are one big giant magenta crayon and magenta is a very poor substitute for red.
I can't believe this needs to be explained when the facts are right in the forefront. I don't care if some here LOVE the GL exclusives, that doesn't change that fact that we're now stuck with way too many of them in a small line of figures. Line them all up on the floor and look at them...even your eyes will tell you there's too many and the line is unbalanced. That's all I'm saying. A few of us here saw this coming and the GL exclusives were made with a VERY unrealistic expectation of extended longevity of the line. Why people here thought this line would go on for years and years escapes me, especially since most here are toy collectors who are just as aware of modern toy line trends and life expectancy as I am, probably moreso than me in fact. For whatever reason though, people felt there would be "plenty of time" to make the rest of the main DC Hereos. Suddenly that's not the case anymore and all we have are 4 magenta crayons but no red one. Magenta lovers will rejoice, red lovers are sent home with their tails between their legs. So although your words are true, most of them are completely irrelevant to my point.

[SciFiGuyLA]

I get it, Lou. I really do. There are characters you very much wanted that you aren't going to get, and characters you are not very interested in that got produced first. But what you've got here is a serious case of sour grapes. The GL exclusives did not kill this line. What killed this line was a series of bad and/or questionable decisions from Mattel. All I'm saying is that you are focusing too narrowly on the GLs. I'm confident in saying that if the GLs exclusives were not offered, we'd still have only 4 retail waves, one Green Arrow exclusive, and a cancelled line. Without the GL exclusives, we'd simply have 17 figures instead of 21. You're making the leap of logic that if they hadn't done the GLs, they would have done something else instead. While that's possible, and we can only speculate, my personal opinion is that we would not have 4 different figures right now. Why? Well, remember Toy Fair in February? Remember how the EMCE boys were teasing new announcements from Mattel before the event, but Mattel was mum on the RA line? That was our first clue that there was trouble in paradise. Mattel obviously decided to carry on with the GLs as part of their GL movie marketing push, but had decided to "reevaluate" the RA line. Because of the timing of the events and the timing of the GL movie release, I'm fairly secure in the idea that whether or not we got the GL exclusives, it would not have impacted decisions made in regards to the retail waves. No GL exclusives only means that we'd have 17 figures and a line that was just as dead. At least, that's my opinion. I have a sneaking suspicion that you're still going to see it differently.

But if you're going to start questioning the character choices for the exclusives, why not also question character choices for the first 4 waves? Should we have gotten Captain Cold, Black Adam, Martian Manhunter or Cheetah before Robin, Joker and Hawkman? If Mattel had asked me if I wanted a Capt. Cold I would probably have said no, not interested. But by gosh if that figure isn't one of the nicest one's in the bunch! And for every person who gripes about Black Manta, there's another one that adores that figure. You see, you, as an individual, were never expected to fall head over heals in love with each and every figure. No one ever expected that 100% of us would be 100% satisfied with the entire line. Hope for? Certainly. But expected? Never. That's human nature. We're a diverse bunch, and we sometimes like different things. You're favorite characters are not necessarily the same as everybody else's favorite characters. Maybe you like 90% of the figures, maybe you like 75%, or maybe only 30%, but 100% is unrealistic. You got some figures that you love and others that you didn't. But guess what? That's true of ALL OF US! You are by no means alone in your disappointment. I just think that you are placing a bit too much of your anger on the GLs.

And no one here is as bummed out as me. Dr. Fate and the Spectre were both on my fantasy wish list from day one. As upset as you are about Robin and the Joker, I am equally upset about Fate and the Spectre. So, you see, we are all missing out on something that we really wanted. I guess I just don't see the GLs as the root of my disappointment.

Oh, and for the record, I never expected this line to survive past the 6 waves Mattel was originally planning.

[LOU]

I get it, Lou. I really do. There are characters you very much wanted that you aren't going to get, and characters you are not very interested in that got produced first. But what you've got here is a serious case of sour grapes. The GL exclusives did not kill this line.

OMG, LOLOL! I think I'm going to blow a gasket here. SciFiGuy, please tell me WHO said the GL's killed the line? Please find my supposed quote where I state this in this thread. I have absolutely no further comment on this repeated remark as I've already addressed this several times now. Please read my previous posts more thoroughly. Unbelievable how this happens here. I mean how many different ways can I guy write in his posts that "I DO NOT THINK THE GL'S HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE LINE'S CANCELLATION." Seriously, didn't I address this three times in EVERY one of my posts here? Please, do me a favor and go back and look. I just can't believe I was misquoted yet again in this way after SPECIFICALLY requesting that I not be on the last page. It's just unbelievable how people here comment after reading only half of a person's post. If you deem my lengthy posts too long then fine, don't read them and move on. But please don't take it upon yourself to read half of my remarks and then issue an adversarial reply. Either read it all and reply or move on. Half-assed replies here do nothing for the Museum community nor for our quality and intelligent debates we have here.

What killed this line was a series of bad and/or questionable decisions from Mattel. All I'm saying is that you are focusing too narrowly on the GLs. I'm confident in saying that if the GLs exclusives were not offered, we'd still have only 4 retail waves, one Green Arrow exclusive, and a cancelled line. Without the GL exclusives, we'd simply have 17 figures instead of 21. You're making the leap of logic that if they hadn't done the GLs, they would have done something else instead. While that's possible, and we can only speculate, my personal opinion is that we would not have 4 different figures right now. Why? Well, remember Toy Fair in February? Remember how the EMCE boys were teasing new announcements from Mattel before the event, but Mattel was mum on the RA line? That was our first clue that there was trouble in paradise. Mattel obviously decided to carry on with the GLs as part of their GL movie marketing push, but had decided to "reevaluate" the RA line. Because of the timing of the events and the timing of the GL movie release, I'm fairly secure in the idea that whether or not we got the GL exclusives, it would not have impacted decisions made in regards to the retail waves. No GL exclusives only means that we'd have 17 figures and a line that was just as dead. At least, that's my opinion. I have a sneaking suspicion that you're still going to see it differently.

But if you're going to start questioning the character choices for the exclusives, why not also question character choices for the first 4 waves? Should we have gotten Captain Cold, Black Adam, Martian Manhunter or Cheetah before Robin, Joker and Hawkman? If Mattel had asked me if I wanted a Capt. Cold I would probably have said no, not interested. But by gosh if that figure isn't one of the nicest one's in the bunch! And for every person who gripes about Black Manta, there's another one that adores that figure. You see, you, as an individual, were never expected to fall head over heals in love with each and every figure. No one ever expected that 100% of us would be 100% satisfied with the entire line. Hope for? Certainly. But expected? Never. That's human nature. We're a diverse bunch, and we sometimes like different things. You're favorite characters are not necessarily the same as everybody else's favorite characters. Maybe you like 90% of the figures, maybe you like 75%, or maybe only 30%, but 100% is unrealistic. You got some figures that you love and others that you didn't. But guess what? That's true of ALL OF US! You are by no means alone in your disappointment. I just think that you are placing a bit too much of your anger on the GLs.

And no one here is as bummed out as me. Dr. Fate and the Spectre were both on my fantasy wish list from day one. As upset as you are about Robin and the Joker, I am equally upset about Fate and the Spectre. So, you see, we are all missing out on something that we really wanted. I guess I just don't see the GLs as the root of my disappointment.

Oh, and for the record, I never expected this line to survive past the 6 waves Mattel was originally planning.

Yes sir, you are correct, I see it completely differently. Where you lose me in your remarks is when you claim that if the GL's weren't produced that another 4 figures would not be made in place of them. I completely disagree. I do not, even for a moment, think that if the GL's were cancelled, that another 4 figures wouldn't have been produced. I don't believe that. You are correct however, that part of my remarks are my opinion. The part of my remarks that are fact however, that are seemingly ignored, is that the RESOURCES USED ON 4 GL'S COULD'VE BEEN USED FOR OTHER CHARACTERS. I don't care if they were exclusives. I don't care if they came out at a different time than the GL exclusives. All I am saying, repeating myself in typical Museum fashion these days, is that resources to make these GL's were wasted. They made the boots, they made the costumes, they made the heads. So resources were used regardless of where the finished figures were sold or what they were sold as, exclusives or otherwise. So that's it and that's not my opinion, that's a common sense fact. So in your reply you are blending my own speculative remarks with my factual ones and providing one blanket reply.

So to clarify, no I don't know for certain that if the GL's weren't made that 4 other staple characters necessarily would've been. That is clearly just an opinion of mine and nothing more, you are correct. But I DO KNOW that resources to produce 4 action figures were wasted on 4 GL exclusives instead of other more appropriate characters. As far as your remarks about people wanting different characters, you're 100% right, everyone has their faves. Still, I'm hard-pressed to think there's anyone who collects these things that didn't want a Robin or a Joker over the GL's. Those characters almost transcend fan opinion and are just expected. I mean I'm not talking about Booster Gold or Starman here, we're talking ROBIN and JOKER. Everyone wants those characters so opinion really doesn't play into staple characters like that. I think most all of us wanted them, I just think most people here were wrongly assuming there'd be plenty of time for those figures later in the line. So yes, I'm sure there's a handful of folks who hold the "opinion" that they rathered Guy Gardner over Robin...but I do not believe they are the majority of the collectors. Since Robin is clearly an overwhelming favorite to be made, personal opinion as to character selection is almost irrelevant since he's an expected character. It's unbelievable we're in danger of having Batman and no Robin though.

[jemboy2004]

With all due respect jemboy, how can you say you "doubt the GL's took any away" in light of the cancelled line announcement? Of course they did, those 4 GL's could be Robin, Joker, Hawkman, and many others. We're probably not going to have Batman & Robin in a "DC SUPERHEROES" collection...but we'll have Batman &...Yellow Sinestro. Sorry, I just don't get your logic here and how you arrive at that conclusion.

LOU you keep repeating in every thread about this saying we'd have gotten Joker and Robin Etc. instead and you don't realize Mattel decides who they are gonna make, they have the license the money backing the line and get to decide who gets made.

To point out something the exclusives are being made for collectors not the general toy buying public. Robin and Joker are too popular for them to do exclusives. That would be like making Batman the exclusive. It's your logic that isn't making any sense. You can't accept the fact that if these lantern's were not done we still would have NO JOKER OR ROBIN or who ever else you want. That's way the cookie crumbled.

I love all the lantern's and I'd buy an army of them and I'm very happy with the one's they did and I bought them all. Just for the record I wasn't one of those saying how great they were and not buying them. I got them all! I wish they did more lantern's! I love Green Lantern and the Corps.

You do realize some of us would rather have these lanterns than another Robin or Joker. Hasbro did some in this size not long ago and you can still get them at decent prices. Grab the batman and robin set and Joker and your all set. Hawkman would have been cool to get but guess that won't happen too bad I'd like him.

[Werewolf]

So, you see, we are all missing out on something that we really wanted.

I personally really wanted a silver age purple dress Catwoman and Barbara Gordon Batgirl. So, yeah, it's disappointing but I still got Wonder Woman and Cheetah which is honestly more favorite characters than I thought I'd get out of the line.

Btw: I do agree with your point on the Matty GL series. They don't take way from anything because they never would have went to retail and characters like Joker and Robin are too high profile of characters to be used as online exclusives. I have zero interest in the Matty GL wave but I don't see it as taking figures away from the retail line.

[LOU]

. I have zero interest in the Matty GL wave but I don't see it as taking figures away from the retail line.

LOL! Please, so I understand this once and for all. How can this be repeatedly said?

Item 1-Mattel paid to make heads, boots, packaging, and outfits for 4 figures.
Item 2-We'll be missing 4 major characters

So explain to me how you guys say they don't "take anything away from the retail line." What difference does it make where or how they were sold? Again, THE RESOURCES TO PRODUCE THE GL FIGURES were wasted. I just don't understand how you guys arrive at this conclusion. It's like you're saying some other toy company paid for the GL's to be made. The same company that makes the retail ones made the exclusives, therefore the SAME resources were wasted. The GL's exist, Robin and Joker won't. It's very simple. The fact they were exclusives has nothing to do with what we're talking about. They still used Mattel Retro resources that could've clearly been better utilized elsewhere (like the figures you describe Werewolf.) I just don't get how you guys rationalize this philosophy that they didn't take anything away from the retail line. It makes zero sense.

[jayraytee]

Even if the GL exclusives were not made, we still wouldn't have robin, joker, etc. Thats the point. You have to look at the exclusives and the retail offerings as almost two separate lines.

[boynightwing]

Some of us like Yellow Sinestro.

[The Bat]

Some of us like Yellow Sinestro.

Yup! I prefer yellow Sinestro over his Clown suit.

[thunderbolt]

sure the GL's were exclusives, but did Mattel use them as a test for shifting the line to Matty exclusive? As in, did they not sell well enough to justify continuing the line in any way shape or form? What really amazes me is that Mattel turns a blind eye to its own inability to get these into TRU and actually sell them.

[vc9k]

Even if the GL exclusives were not made, we still wouldn't have robin, joker, etc. Thats the point. You have to look at the exclusives and the retail offerings as almost two separate lines.

This is exactly what LOU has been trying to say since the beginning, this thread was never about the GL's killing Retro(they didn't) It's about Mattel running their DC lines like they are going to last 5 or 6 years and saving characters. What ends up happening is lines get cancelled before they are done and we get a collection that has figures we could live without and we don't end up getting figures we actually wanted.

[drmego]

It's very simple - DC Comics wanted the GL matty exclusives to be part of the
build-up for the new movie. Mattel is interested in working well with DC.

Be glad Warner Bros. didn't go with an Ambush Bug movie for summer 2011,
instead of Green Lantern.

[Timothy2251]

It's very simple - DC Comics wanted the GL matty exclusives to be part of the
build-up for the new movie. Mattel is interested in working well with DC.

Be glad Warner Bros. didn't go with an Ambush Bug movie for summer 2011,
instead of Green Lantern.

A big-budget Ambush Bug flick? I'd... I'd have to see that film. In 3D.

[LOU]

This is exactly what LOU has been trying to say since the beginning, this thread was never about the GL's killing Retro(they didn't) It's about Mattel running their DC lines like they are going to last 5 or 6 years and saving characters. What ends up happening is lines get cancelled before they are done and we get a collection that has figures we could live without and we don't end up getting figures we actually wanted.

Yeah, LOL, I thought it was a pretty simple thing I was saying vc9k...not sure it should've required me the dozens of paragraphs I wrote to re-explain this over and over again to people since you apparently got it the first time without convolution.