Hot Toys and Pricing

[VintageJoe70]

This isn't my world but that whole justification for the "Super Secret Gold Club" felt all kinds of "Beanie Babyish".

Yea, I have yet to see an exclusive HT put out that I couldn't live without...unless it's an extra headsculpt....

Speaking of beanies, would you like to buy some, I'm selling...lmao...

[palitoy]

One thing I noticed this summer while looking for my new house was EVERYONE has Beanies in their basement.

I don't own a single Hot Toy, I've bought pricey 1/6th figures of characters not available in other formats but Hot Toys has yet to make anything that made me say "I can justify that price". It could happen, it's not impossible.

[samurainoir]

So this guy's justification is the company was always intended to sell directly to the customer in Hong Kong, so unless you are indigenous to that market you are outside their intended price points? Excrement. And then he suggests that there is no scalping or overpricing in Hong Kong? Huh? So if Sheba in Hong Kong goes down and picks up a box of Iron man figures at counter price to sell to Joe America in New Jersey, he's telling me the mark up is purely expense rated? That's ridiculous. By his own definition he's so busy picking up his figures directly while visiting the corner food market for his fish fingers, he doesn't see the mark up many of these companies have on foreign business. I would agree with him when he says he only knows about his own marketplace. He's trying to blend the private seller with the distributors as if the two are equal. They are not.

I don't believe that is what he is saying at all Tom. He's saying that price increases the further out you get from direct-from-manufacturer. Hong Kong residences with direct access to Secret Base, the Hot Toys showroom will benefit the most from that, and prices increase in retail depending on the layers of middle men and distance from the original market-place. His examples of comic stores being most expensive makes perfect sense to me if they are adding in a couple of layers of distributers, shipping, exchange rate on top of the additional brick and mortar retailer. I also don't think he's really addressing "scalping" in too much detail, choosing to talk about mostly talking about retail for the most part.

[samurainoir]

This isn't my world but that whole justification for the "Super Secret Gold Club" felt all kinds of "Beanie Babyish".

Early bird pricing and members pricing is strategy across many retailers. Don't think it's anything new or unique to Hot Toys or any collectibles market place. Exclusivity marketing is common strategy in high end retail, from wines to shoes. It's just applied to toys in this case.

I've personally never bought any Hot Toys for myself, but own a few as gifts which I enjoy. don't really have any dog in the race, just interested in the discussion on perceived pricing. I've got a brother ten years my junior who drops that kind of coin for new stuff that I would only pay for vintage. to each his own.

[palitoy]

Early bird pricing and members pricing is strategy across many retailers. Don't think it's anything new or unique to Hot Toys or any collectibles market place. Exclusivity marketing is common strategy in high end retail, from wines to shoes. It's just applied to toys in this case.

Church it up all you want, it's a cash grab fella. It's a way to get capital up front but it also entitles a fan base. I also would say the same of any high end retailer that offers such things.

I've personally never bought any Hot Toys for myself, but own a few as gifts which I enjoy. don't really have any dog in the race, just interested in the discussion on perceived pricing. I've got a brother ten years my junior who drops that kind of coin for new stuff that I would only pay for vintage. to each his own.

I'm not throwing down judgement on anybody, I honestly don't care if people blow their brains out on these things. There is no bitterness on my end, if it makes you happy, go for it! I live in a GIGANTIC glass house full of trash.

[VintageJoe70]

Church it up all you want, it's a cash grab fella. It's a way to get capital up front but it also entitles a fan base. I also would say the same of any high end retailer that offers such things.



I'm not throwing down judgement on anybody, I honestly don't care if people blow their brains out on these things. There is no bitterness on my end, if it makes you happy, go for it! I live in a GIGANTIC glass house full of trash.

Alot of people are into the extreme detail and realism of these figures...Which is what your paying for...As much as vintage collectors are into condition and rarity of the pieces they collect...Granted the vintage stuff will usually continue to go up in value, while the HT figures may not...but it's all in what your looking for in your figure collecting....

[palitoy]

Alot of people are into the extreme detail and realism of these figures...Which is what your paying for...As much as vintage collectors are into condition and rarity of the pieces they collect...Granted the vintage stuff will usually continue to go up in value, while the HT figures may not...but it's all in what your looking for in your figure collecting....

AGAIN, I'm not casting judgement and don't need it rationalized, I totally get it. If hyper detail floats your boat, enjoy yourself, thumbs up from here, it's healthy. It would be ridiculously, enormously hypocritical of me to say anything otherwise.

However, offering a tier membership fee is a cash grab. I don't begrudge it (I don't even collect these things!) but it was it is. That's the only thing I take umbrage with but it's done with zero emotion.

[samurainoir]

Church it up all you want, it's a cash grab fella. It's a way to get capital up front but it also entitles a fan base. I also would say the same of any high end retailer that offers such things.

I wouldn't argue with that. It's the $20 bottle of wine that doesn't get the attention in the marketplace until you up the price to $80+ and start up-selling it. At the end of the day you're not selling the wine per say, but the image and association with the high end. It's not like vintage doesn't have it's fair share of high end consumer either, which I guess is where the objections often come from with low-cost repros entering the marketplace. But then again there is a distinction between true rarity and contemporary manufactured scarcity as well.. which is where the early bird and member purchasing and con exclusive comes in I guess?

[palitoy]

I don't agree with the "Repro vs Vintage" analogy at all, reproductions occur when vintage reaches a certain price ceiling and manufacturers realize there is a demand for a lower cost substitute. Nobody is actively marketing vintage as status, it's not controlled, it's more of a vacuum.

Vintage demand occurs more naturally, what Hot Toys is doing is artificially inflated. Not illegal, not even morally reprehensible but still....enh....

It's the $20 bottle of wine that doesn't get the attention in the marketplace until you up the price to $80+ and start up-selling it. At the end of the day you're not selling the wine per say, but the image and association with the high end.

And that's exactly what I meant by saying it's "Beanie Babyish", it's exploiting a loyal fan base by creating tiers. It's like a half empty bar creating a line but a $5 membership can get you in. Some folks justify it, even love it but others will probably end up resenting it and the establishment itself. It's a slippery slope in marketing when you're charging customers to simply buy from you, amazing water tight plastic bag or not. You can breed your own Bolsheviks, that's all i'm saying here.

[samurainoir]

However, offering a tier membership fee is a cash grab. I don't begrudge it (I don't even collect these things!) but it was it is. That's the only thing I take umbrage with but it's done with zero emotion.

I kind of equate it with buying a condo before they break ground... you generally get the better deal because your early capital, as you mentioned, is used to help finance the endeavour. It seems like a win on both sides of the equation to me if early buy in gets you better pricing on a product you'd be inclined to buy anyways once it hits regular retail. Hot Toys isn't a huge company, it's a pretty small tight operation all things considered. Limited amount of product released each year, developed by a fairly small team and released in limited quantities. Even if they are making, let's pick an arbitrary number... a hundred bucks (or two?) across a few thousand units of each release, that's still not the Huge Mega Bucks that folks seems to be making it out to be. It's still an incredibly niche market.

Also the difference between splitting costs with distribution and retail partners overseas via sideshow or diamond or whomever, might not be too far off if they are running lavish brick and mortar showrooms in such high-rent asian cities like Hong Kong and Tokyo where they sell direct-to-consumer.

[palitoy]

I kind of equate it with buying a condo before they break ground... you generally get the better deal because your early capital, as you mentioned, is used to help finance the endeavour. It seems like a win on both sides of the equation to me if early buy in gets you better pricing on a product you'd be inclined to buy anyways once it hits regular retail. Hot Toys isn't a huge company, it's a pretty small tight operation all things considered. Limited amount of product released each year, developed by a fairly small team and released in limited quantities. Even if they are making, let's pick an arbitrary number... a hundred bucks (or two?) across a few thousand units of each release, that's still not the Huge Mega Bucks that folks seems to be making it out to be. It's still an incredibly niche market.

The difference there is you're buying the condo. You're not paying for the opportunity to possibly buy the next Condo, two different things entirely.

I have zero objection that if you're the first to pony up dough for a good, that you're given a perk that others won't get at a later date. You're voting by buying, that's just good commerce and rewarding an early bird. It gives you up front capital and the consumer gets a warm and fuzzy.

Company infrastructure also doesn't sway the argument for a tiered membership fee, it isn't a not for profit, it's a business and what seems to be a popular one at that.

Also the difference between splitting costs with distribution and retail partners overseas via sideshow or diamond or whomever, might not be too far off if they are running lavish brick and mortar showrooms in such high-rent asian cities like Hong Kong and Tokyo where they sell direct-to-consumer.

I am not objecting to the pricing of their product but if your overheads aren't in there, then it's your fault, not the consumer.

[samurainoir]

I don't agree with the "Repro vs Vintage" analogy at all, reproductions occur when vintage reaches a certain price ceiling and manufacturers realize there is a demand for a lower cost substitute. Nobody is actively marketing vintage as status, it's not controlled, it's more of a vacuum.

Vintage demand occurs more naturally, what Hot Toys is doing is artificially inflated. Not illegal, not even morally reprehensible but still....enh....

that's exactly what I was saying in this bit here:

But then again there is a distinction between true rarity and contemporary manufactured scarcity as well.. which is where the early bird and member purchasing and con exclusive comes in I guess?

I was just thinking out loud, whether we like it or not, there is a certain point where once the amounts of Hot Toys level cash and way above that are traded for vintage, it does denote a certain degree of status within any given collector community. Perhaps it's the IDEA of status through owned object is not dissimilar, whether it's an old collectible or new (even if at the end of the day it's all just stuff you cram into your house). I think when the repros started coming out a decade or so ago, there was at least a vocal part of the community that felt their investment (And perhaps even status?) in a vintage collection was a bit threatened as a result. That might even have been justified as we've seen demand/prices of vintage Knights, Merry Men, Pirates, even Apes and Trek's drop at least a bit with the release of repros haven't we?

I think the big difference with Beanie Babies is, weren't they mass manufactured? (I honestly don't know anything about them) Vs. Hot Toys which generally still numbers in the single digit thousands for each release, which is why demand in the past has generally outstripped supply? At those prices, I honestly don't see collectors hoarding attics full of multiples of these as future investment. ALL the Hot Toys collectors I know personally, own ONE of the releases they want. The size and costs really don't even support that buy one to open, buy one to keep, that is generally so prevalent in most other toy collecting circles.

[samurainoir]

The difference there is you're buying the condo. You're not paying for the opportunity to possibly buy the next Condo, two different things entirely.

Fair enough. I guess we need to distinguish between the pre-orders, or paid memberships and random lottery membership they were talking about as well. Although I would imagine the latter is there to make some feel better about the former? Or maybe I'm completely misunderstanding what they are doing. But that's High End marketing in a nutshell, exclusivity means folks are are generally buying into status (or "membership" or magic beans) not necessarily the object itself. I don't know if they aren't necessarily getting nothing out of it if that piece of paper means something to themselves or their self esteem or worth or whatever (whether we think that is sad or not... for some it's cars and others it's sports right?).

I'm kind of immersed in Hot Toys culture and collectors right now, being physically in Hong Kong, and I can admit maybe it's hard not to drink their Kool-Aid, but I also can't deny that the friends/relatives and other folks I've been chatting with generally have as much genuine love of their Hot Toys as we love our Megos.

[palitoy]

Fair enough. I guess we need to distinguish between the pre-orders, or paid memberships and random lottery membership they were talking about as well. Although I would imagine the latter is there to make some feel better about the former? Or maybe I'm completely misunderstanding what they are doing. But that's High End marketing in a nutshell, exclusivity means folks are are generally buying into status (or "membership" or magic beans) not necessarily the object itself. I don't know if they aren't necessarily getting nothing out of it if that piece of paper means something to themselves or their self esteem or worth or whatever (whether we think that is sad or not... for some it's cars and others it's sports right?).

Yeah that whole "gold platinum" level thing is the only thing I'm debating as being hard to defend.

I'm kind of immersed in Hot Toys culture and collectors right now, being physically in Hong Kong, and I can admit maybe it's hard not to drink their Kool-Aid, but I also can't deny that the friends/relatives and other folks I've been chatting with generally have as much genuine love of their Hot Toys as we love our Megos.

if there is one thing is this debate that i find troubling is how many times this gets brought up to me every time Hot Toys is discussed. I'm not debating that fact, nor am I suggesting that it's wrong in any way. They're beautiful items, just not for me, doesn't mean I think they're bad.

I was just thinking out loud, whether we like it or not, there is a certain point where once the amounts of Hot Toys level cash and way above that are traded for vintage, it does denote a certain degree of status within any given collector community.

Sure, some vintage collectors felt a bit of cachet with their collections, that happens and it often isn't great (it happens in any social circle, i was once told to put on a skirt by a Judo Sensei because I had a Karate black belt). The difference that can't be ignored is Mego isn't marketing to people. it's dead, the demand is created purely by nostalgia, so the comparison isn't pure.

I think the big difference with Beanie Babies is, weren't they mass manufactured? (I honestly don't know anything about them) Vs. Hot Toys which generally still numbers in the single digit thousands for each release, which is why demand in the past has generally outstripped supply? At those prices, I honestly don't see collectors hoarding attics full of multiples of these as future investment. ALL the Hot Toys collectors I know personally, own ONE of the releases they want. The size and costs really don't even support that buy one to open, buy one to keep, that is generally so prevalent in most other toy collecting circles.

I surrender the point that "Beanie Babies" was a terrible analogy that brings all this baggage that I should have thought more carefully about. I should have just called it tier marketing.

Hot Toys is a boutique product that people pay premium for, I just think it's dangerous to slap a premium on a premium. When you collect them, you're already in a club of sorts. My total argument.

[samurainoir]

Hot Toys is a boutique product that people pay premium for, I just think it's dangerous to slap a premium on a premium. When you collect them, you're already in a club of sorts. My total argument.

I'd say I'm in agreement in that regard.

Had one more thought on the matter though... seeing the limited physical retail space they are operating out of, and having just heard the stories about line-ups for new releases, limiting membership seems like it might also be a way for them to control the crowds. If it were a pure cash grab, they might not limit the amount of memberships the way they do (since they could arguably make way more money selling much more memberships and not resort to lottery). It does sound like a situation where the membership pays for itself in the early bird discount within a couple of purchases?

Although, I'm quite literally a tourist at best right now when it comes to the Hong Kong Hot Toys culture.