So, is the Round 2 Captain Action line officially dead?

[Hedji]

I like the Captain by himself too. But my tastes lean towards his vintage aesthetic. Something about the long, lean arms in those vintage costumes is magical. The Round 2 stuff looked bulky, overly muscular, and clumsy. I do feel that Playing Mantis was ahead of its time actually. If they had come out now when the Superhero craze is white hot, doing the straight vintage repros, with the big licenses intact, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[levyguy]

I will be the one here to go out on a limb and say I like Captain Action by himself, including Action Boy & Dr. Evil.

I liked the outfits--I was particularly into the PM stuff--but the core characters are still engaging to me and I liked the DC comic.

I do feel Round 2 F'd up the recent offerings.

I agree. I Love CA and AB as themselves as well as with uniform sets.

[levyguy]

I like the Captain by himself too. But my tastes lean towards his vintage aesthetic. Something about the long, lean arms in those vintage costumes is magical. The Round 2 stuff looked bulky, overly muscular, and clumsy. I do feel that Playing Mantis was ahead of its time actually. If they had come out now when the Superhero craze is white hot, doing the straight vintage repros, with the big licenses intact, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I agree, the Ideal CA was far better than the Round 2 figure. If PM had the DC and Marvel licenses CA would have really taken off. PM was correct in copying the Ideal line and packaging.
The Round 2 figure is NOT Captain Action, maybe it is his brother.

[Timothy2251]

The 12 " Thor Capt. Action looked weird because it gave him puny arms and Ironman's head was huge plus you had to buy a figure for every suit.
These 4" Capt Actions have a lot of potential maybe a few generic hero versions like Cosmic Captain, Archer Captain, Eagle Captain and Nuclear Doc Evil
or whatever they can come up with it seems to work for Commander X 8" figures

I like this idea. A lot. Hopefully, ZICA's multiple versions of CA could each have a unique snap on outfit or accessory. Kind of like the Kenner Dark Knight collection after the '89 Batman movie.

[MIB41]

I think this discussion perfectly illustrates the conundrum Captain Action exists in. He's a toy from yesteryear that was never developed to be much more than a host for licensed costumes. The name, the logo, and costume were all generic references to provide a basic foundation for kids of the 60's to dress a figure into heroes. What everyone does today is celebrate that original toy. That's what Playing Mantis did, as did Castaway, as did Round Two. The Zica figure is also a celebration of the toy. I tip my hat to Ed and Joe for wanting to broaden his scope. But after nearly 50 years of being in the consciousness of collectors as a transforming action figure, there's not anything they can produce that will trump that original gimmick.

Captain Action "the spy", will never touch Captain Action as Spider-man or Batman. He's also never going to be a mass retail action figure, which is where I think the main problem resides. Sell to the base and you'll always get the best results. Sell to an uninformed public and you get a stagnant product. Those are the lessons of Playing Mantis and Round 2. Look at FTC. They are wildly successful with tons of product from highly successful and expensive licenses. They've taken risks. But they're also only making product for their base. Their not trying to go through TRU or Walmart to make product for the general public. CAE should use FTC as a business model and celebrate what actually works with Captain Action. If they want something different then create a new license influenced by Captain Action and let that be it's own identity. Captain Action's image is etched in stone. Whether you like him as he is or in costumes, he still remains a toy from the past. THAT is his appeal (IMO).

[phil]

I also like Captain Action as himself.

[ZICA]

I think this discussion perfectly illustrates the conundrum Captain Action exists in. He's a toy from yesteryear that was never developed to be much more than a host for licensed costumes. The name, the logo, and costume were all generic references to provide a basic foundation for kids of the 60's to dress a figure into heroes. What everyone does today is celebrate that original toy. That's what Playing Mantis did, as did Castaway, as did Round Two. The Zica figure is also a celebration of the toy. I tip my hat to Ed and Joe for wanting to broaden his scope. But after nearly 50 years of being in the consciousness of collectors as a transforming action figure, there's not anything they can produce that will trump that original gimmick.

Captain Action "the spy", will never touch Captain Action as Spider-man or Batman. He's also never going to be a mass retail action figure, which is where I think the main problem resides. Sell to the base and you'll always get the best results. Sell to an uninformed public and you get a stagnant product. Those are the lessons of Playing Mantis and Round 2. Look at FTC. They are wildly successful with tons of product from highly successful and expensive licenses. They've taken risks. But they're also only making product for their base. Their not trying to go through TRU or Walmart to make product for the general public. CAE should use FTC as a business model and celebrate what actually works with Captain Action. If they want something different then create a new license influenced by Captain Action and let that be it's own identity. Captain Action's image is etched in stone. Whether you like him as he is or in costumes, he still remains a toy from the past. THAT is his appeal (IMO).

So basically you want to pigeonhole Captain Action as just a dress-up figure from the 60's and leave it at that. If the original concept can't be successful it would be best if Joe and Ed just threw in the towel on the brand and moved on. I don't know Tom, seems a little narrow minded to me.

Bottom line is it would take big money to get the licenses for DC and Marvel so you would have to sell an astronomical amount of costume sets to make your money back. I can't imagine that the target market for the original concept has the numbers it would take to make that happen, which has been proven twice. FTC most likely has package deals on a lot, if not all, of their licenses so I doubt they're paying a premium price for everything.

In order for the Captain Action brand to survive it has to evolve, and that's not a simple task to do. It takes trial and error, which is what Joe and Ed are going through. They'll either find success with their efforts at some point, or they'll finally say enough is enough and move on. There are things going on behind the scenes that I think will put a cool new spin on Captain Action, all of which will hopefully appeal to both old and new fans.

[MIB41]

So basically you want to pigeonhole Captain Action as just a dress-up figure from the 60's and leave it at that. If the original concept can't be successful it would be best if Joe and Ed just threw in the towel on the brand and moved on. I don't know Tom, seems a little narrow minded to me.

Bottom line is it would take big money to get the licenses for DC and Marvel so you would have to sell an astronomical amount of costume sets to make your money back. I can't imagine that the target market for the original concept has the numbers it would take to make that happen, which has been proven twice. FTC most likely has package deals on a lot, if not all, of their licenses so I doubt they're paying a premium price for everything.

In order for the Captain Action brand to survive it has to evolve, and that's not a simple task to do. It takes trial and error, which is what Joe and Ed are going through. They'll either find success with their efforts at some point, or they'll finally say enough is enough and move on. There are things going on behind the scenes that I think will put a cool new spin on Captain Action, all of which will hopefully appeal to both old and new fans.

Craig, first let me say that I respect what you're doing with this license and really everything you've done in this hobby. I think you're immensely talented and bring a refreshing perspective to the craft. But what we're doing here is just having a discussion. I don't pretend to have the "right" answers. All I have is my opinion and my life of 50 years watching this product come in and out of the retail world. My opinion and outlook might differ from yours, but it doesn't mean I'm setting out to be in opposition to what you want.

I own all of the Playing Mantis product line. I also have all of the Round Two product line with respects to figures and costume sets (deluxe and standard). I have a current Captain Action figure for every costume made, plus extras including three or four Arctic Adventurer variants. It would be misguided to think I have been unsupportive to this line or the cause Joe and Ed have set forth in their efforts. But I have supported this line because it stays true to it's roots. Updates? Ed and Joe gave those. They completely reworked his body to be more in tune with modern day 1/6th scale figures, and re-sculpted his head to fit more with a modern audience. They modernized his packaging while still tipping their hat to what came before and snagged the Marvel license to push the line. I agreed with every aspect of that. All smart moves in my opinion. The Captain was updated.

My only disagreement was pushing him to the general public. Mattel tried that with Megos and it didn't last. Hasbro made AT era GI Joes through Walmart and those soon warmed counter space as did the 40th anniversary Joes from the 60's. Those figures didn't fail because they were bad ideas. All of them lasted much longer than Captain Action. It's just that their market no longer competed with modern kids. Collectors wanted these and so that's where the product went. A slew of companies lead by FTC make Mego scale figures that have been very successful. But they're successful because they're manufactured at a volume that meets demand. FTC isn't littered through Walmarts, TRU, Targets, or mall outlets. Sure some comic shops carry some of this, but its mostly an online product. And FTC is doing everything Mego did and expanding to cover even more characters at a pace that is staggering by any measure.

Suggesting CAE should follow that strategy is not something I would classify as pigeon-holing the concept. Quite the contrary, suggesting a business model of success is not being narrow minded when we have countless examples of it not only working but thriving. What you're telling me is the collectors have no buying power with CAE. I have to respectfully disagree and suggest you are pigeon holing the potential of the existing concept because you have no faith in the base.

I and allot of collectors have bought everything they've made. It didn't fail because we didn't show up. It failed because it was produced at volumes that also depended on a modern consumer that knows nothing about it nor really embraces those core ideas. And it had to do it without any commercials to even sell the idea. How was that ever going to work? Well, it didn't.

Captain Action is already updated by modern standards of manufacturing and styling. What base does CAE hope to find if they abandon the collector? A modern base of kids who already deplore Megos and GI Joe? What kid is going to look at a guy in tights with a captain's hat and say, "Oh I get that" simply because they change his origin? Small pickings my friend. In my mind, that's not thinking outside the box, that's ignoring the obvious. FTC isn't successful because they reinvented the Mego wheel. They simply identified their target audience and made LIMITED quantities of what they want. Smaller quantities drives demand. NOW they are expanding by leaps and bounds. If CAE wants to expand the Captain, they need to reward their base with the product they want first. Yes, smaller quantities mean higher prices, but collectors like me will pay that if they know the conveyor belt is working and CAE has found the tracks again. Yes, this is just my opinion, but I don't see ANY product out there that has been successful from straying from the core idea that made it popular.

[enyawd72]

^This. IMO, Ed and Joe made a huge mistake in trying to reinvent CA for a market that didn't exist, while wasting precious resources on assorted doodads adorned with the CA logo.
Craig, you mentioned how KISS slaps their logo on everything and it works for them. It works because there are probably 10,000 KISS fans for every one CA fan.
What I would have done after acquiring the Marvel license is release exact replicas of the vintage Spider-Man and Captain America sets in limited quantities at a higher price point. Based on how rare and expensive the originals are, I know I would have paid $100-$150 for a mint reproduction, and I believe owners of the originals would also have bought them to open and play/display while preserving their vintage examples.
I'm STILL trying to piece together mint loose vintage sets.
I then would have produced new sets made to look as if Ideal would have done them in the 60's...in keeping with the original CA aesthetic.

[ZICA]

Craig, first let me say that I respect what you're doing with this license and really everything you've done in this hobby. I think you're immensely talented and bring a refreshing perspective to the craft. But what we're doing here is just having a discussion. I don't pretend to have the "right" answers. All I have is my opinion and my life of 50 years watching this product come in and out of the retail world. My opinion and outlook might differ from yours, but it doesn't mean I'm setting out to be in opposition to what you want.

I own all of the Playing Mantis product line. I also have all of the Round Two product line with respects to figures and costume sets (deluxe and standard). I have a current Captain Action figure for every costume made, plus extras including three or four Arctic Adventurer variants. It would be misguided to think I have been unsupportive to this line or the cause Joe and Ed have set forth in their efforts. But I have supported this line because it stays true to it's roots. Updates? Ed and Joe gave those. They completely reworked his body to be more in tune with modern day 1/6th scale figures, and re-sculpted his head to fit more with a modern audience. They modernized his packaging while still tipping their hat to what came before and snagged the Marvel license to push the line. I agreed with every aspect of that. All smart moves in my opinion. The Captain was updated.

My only disagreement was pushing him to the general public. Mattel tried that with Megos and it didn't last. Hasbro made AT era GI Joes through Walmart and those soon warmed counter space as did the 40th anniversary Joes from the 60's. Those figures didn't fail because they were bad ideas. All of them lasted much longer than Captain Action. It's just that their market no longer competed with modern kids. Collectors wanted these and so that's where the product went. A slew of companies lead by FTC make Mego scale figures that have been very successful. But they're successful because they're manufactured at a volume that meets demand. FTC isn't littered through Walmarts, TRU, Targets, or mall outlets. Sure some comic shops carry some of this, but its mostly an online product. And FTC is doing everything Mego did and expanding to cover even more characters at a pace that is staggering by any measure.

Suggesting CAE should follow that strategy is not something I would classify as pigeon-holing the concept. Quite the contrary, suggesting a business model of success is not being narrow minded when we have countless examples of it not only working but thriving. What you're telling me is the collectors have no buying power with CAE. I have to respectfully disagree and suggest you are pigeon holing the potential of the existing concept because you have no faith in the base.

I and allot of collectors have bought everything they've made. It didn't fail because we didn't show up. It failed because it was produced at volumes that also depended on a modern consumer that knows nothing about it nor really embraces those core ideas. And it had to do it without any commercials to even sell the idea. How was that ever going to work? Well, it didn't.

Captain Action is already updated by modern standards of manufacturing and styling. What base does CAE hope to find if they abandon the collector? A modern base of kids who already deplore Megos and GI Joe? What kid is going to look at a guy in tights with a captain's hat and say, "Oh I get that" simply because they change his origin? Small pickings my friend. In my mind, that's not thinking outside the box, that's ignoring the obvious. FTC isn't successful because they reinvented the Mego wheel. They simply identified their target audience and made LIMITED quantities of what they want. Smaller quantities drives demand. NOW they are expanding by leaps and bounds. If CAE wants to expand the Captain, they need to reward their base with the product they want first. Yes, smaller quantities mean higher prices, but collectors like me will pay that if they know the conveyor belt is working and CAE has found the tracks again. Yes, this is just my opinion, but I don't see ANY product out there that has been successful from straying from the core idea that made it popular.

^This. IMO, Ed and Joe made a huge mistake in trying to reinvent CA for a market that didn't exist, while wasting precious resources on assorted doodads adorned with the CA logo.
Craig, you mentioned how KISS slaps their logo on everything and it works for them. It works because there are probably 10,000 KISS fans for every one CA fan.
What I would have done after acquiring the Marvel license is release exact replicas of the vintage Spider-Man and Captain America sets in limited quantities at a higher price point. Based on how rare and expensive the originals are, I know I would have paid $100-$150 for a mint reproduction, and I believe owners of the originals would also have bought them to open and play/display while preserving their vintage examples.
I'm STILL trying to piece together mint loose vintage sets.
I then would have produced new sets made to look as if Ideal would have done them in the 60's...in keeping with the original CA aesthetic.

At this point I'm getting a very strong beating a dead horse vibe from this thread so I guess we should just agree to disagree. If I were to respond to the above comments I would pretty much be repeating myself at this point. Tom, regarding how you think the property should be handled it will be interesting to see how this goes if it gets produced, Captain Action Elite. If it does, it will definitely be a perfect test for putting your money where your mouth is for the Captain Action market you speak so strongly about.

[MIB41]

At this point I'm getting a very strong beating a dead horse vibe from this thread so I guess we should just agree to disagree. If I were to respond to the above comments I would pretty much be repeating myself at this point. Tom, regarding how you think the property should be handled it will be interesting to see how this goes if it gets produced, Captain Action Elite. If it does, it will definitely be a perfect test for putting your money where your mouth is for the Captain Action market you speak so strongly about.

Yeah. I think we both just have a different idea on the property. I think CA by himself is a very limited departure, while I believe you think he can be rebranded to be something else. That being said, I do like what you're bringing to the table because, for me, it's a celebration of the past. It gets even better if you're able to fund the car. That would be a nice addition to any CA collection. But I don't consider that rebranding. It's still within the scope of what came before, but depicted in a different scale with some excellent detail that is uniquely you. Could not imagine it better. Great work!

The Captain Elite idea remains a much talked about concept that doesn't seem to have moved much past it's initial stages of development (you may know better). The article you sited is almost a year old. And like allot of things CAE does not-so-well is create fanfare for something, then miss the release date without so much as a peep as to why. Missing release dates is the norm in this business. Not giving people updates as to why or when to expect another release date is bad PR. The initial offering was stated to be in the third or fourth quarter of 2014. I'm still waiting for a prototype shot. So asking me to put my money behind this when I don't even know what "this" is may be reaching a bit. If you can ask them to provide us with some info, we can start that dialogue and see what comes of it.

[jacoblb]

Did ANYONE on the board buy the limited edition CA with the beret? I'd like extra accessories, but I'm not about to buy another same-character with a huge mark up for just a beret. Too bad I couldn't order this item directly and too bad Round 2 didn't have an online shop where folks could buy such things.

[ODBJBG]

Hasbro made AT era GI Joes through Walmart and those soon warmed counter space as did the 40th anniversary Joes from the 60's.

Just wanted to chime in here... This didn't happen.

The AT Joes were generally a big success at Walmart. They sold well and certainly didn't "shelf warm".

[thunderbolt]

Just wanted to chime in here... This didn't happen.

The AT Joes were generally a big success at Walmart. They sold well and certainly didn't "shelf warm".

yeah, they blew out fast here, over a weekend.

[KLAATU]

yeah, they blew out fast here, over a weekend.

With a price of $8/each, they didn't last long around here either.