Planet of the Apes = Deep Philosophy, Man!

[Seeker]

Logical reading in between the lines. When Ceasar is explaining the back story in front of the Memorial to Cats and Dogs and going on about the bon fires and such.

This is a future ahead of Taylors time. We are even now messing with breeding and genetics. Cloned cats, Glowing Zebra fish etc. One could imagine they are more advanced.

You wouldnt want to have a pet that could easily rip your arm off. Chimps and orangutangs can be very dangerous once out of infancy. (I love those new Discovery channel shows Chimp eden etc) These future people wanted them as house pets. Altering them would be logical.

And once they proved they could do be trained to do work you would want them bigger to do MORE work.

[Vortigern99]

Okay, you've made a logical inference rather than relying purely on exposition from the film. I like that. BUT it still doesn't explain how no one, including the two primatologists, notices that C, Z and Milo are not normal chimps but some kind of genetic mutation, who walk on two legs and have the proportions and anatomy of human beings. Any way we look at it, there's a missing link (hah! get it?) here.

And BTW, it's "Taylor", not "Tyler". We could postulate that Tyler Durden from Fight Club was the astronaut who got sent into the future, but that would be stretching things a bit, don't you think?

[Seeker]

They must have seen that discovery channel show on the Russian super ape Human/ape Breeding program. Those Soviets were up to all kinds of crazy stuff.

Oops Tayor... Tyler... my bad. All fixed.

Anyway just addressing the accelerated evolution here. Cant fill in all the gaps of movie logic.

[Vortigern99]

I woke up early this morning and watched Beneath. Man, that is one bleak, cynical, negative motion picture. It disturbed me as a kid to see my heroes trying to kill each other, and it still disturbs me to this day. The famous line from American Werewolf, "Everybody dies; it's very bloody!" certainly applies here. Good lord.

Compared to the "deep philosophy" of the original, the main thematic concern of this direct sequel seems to be: "War bad." Next up is Escape, which even though it ends badly at least has some cheerful moments when C and Z are the hit of the fashion world.

[ctc]

>BUT it still doesn't explain how no one, including the two primatologists, notices that C, Z and Milo are not normal chimps but some kind of genetic mutation,

Hmmmm.... The fourth movie takes place pretty close to the end of the third, and I think it's safe to assume that alteration of apes MAY have begun by the beginning of the film. They may have seen the three chimps as some sort of augmented ape; which may have become common at that point. Might explain why they didn't freak out more at the idea of them flying a ship. While we don't know for sure; I don't think anything during the movie would negate this solution.

I found the basic premise of the fourth; that cats, dogs, etc died and apes became their sociological replacement, a bit of a stretch. But if you give them that, everything else works pretty well.

Now; I've had a chance to watch the other series: tv and cartoon. I've been told that the cartoon is closer to the book than the movies. The apes had a more primitive society in the film 'cos of time restraints. So.... what do you folks make of these versions?

Don C.

[Vortigern99]

Okay, with Escape, if you just assume/pretend that there has been some genetic tinkering with apes to make them more human-like, that works better. However, then you have the problem of everyone's abject surprise that the "Ape-o-nauts" can talk! If the genetic engineering had been started by that point, the public, the scientists and the tribunal that examines them should not have been so astonished at the apes' development of speech. It's a plot hole that just cannot be filled, IMO, so youi just have to roll with it.

As to the Ape TV shows, I'm a novice to both so I can't comment.

[Seeker]

yeah thinking more on this. The universal translator idea for Taylor understanding and not questioning the Apes speaking English is inventive but falls flat during the trial scene.

Taylor writes his response in English and Cornelius and Zaius can read it.

Thats really interesting when You look at it. The apes have different Glyphs on other things like their uniforms. Are those symbols part of their writen language too? Why have both?


And even if they adopted their slave masters language. You would think after thousands of years it would get currupted into something we could barely understand.

Look at Old English and Modern English. And thats just after a few hundred years.

[Vortigern99]

Exactly. The whole language issue just kind of falls apart under scrutiny. But maybe -- just maybe -- we could combine the two ideas -- the translator implant and the fact that Cornelius tells the court he speaks the language of his forefathers -- into one masterful BS rationalization! This way, Taylor thinks he understands the apes because of the translator device (and vice versa), but actually they're all speaking English the entire time. When the apes read what he's written, he's so wrapped up in the moment that he doesn't stop to consider what's actually going on. As to the lack of change in the language over time, well... apes seem to be very conservative, don't they? And authoritarian. Perhaps the Law-Giver set down the rules of the lnaguage and any deviation would have bene considered heresy. Whew! This retconning requires mental back-flips... but it's kinda fun!

[ctc]

>you have the problem of everyone's abject surprise that the "Ape-o-nauts" can talk! If the genetic engineering had been started by that point, the public, the scientists and the tribunal that examines them should not have been so astonished at the apes' development of speech.

I dunno.... if no ape had spoke before then; even if they had the capacity, people would have been surprised. Kind of a nod to the original film where Zira had discovered that humans of the day didn't talk but had the organs neccessary for speech.

>Look at Old English and Modern English. And thats just after a few hundred years.

I'd always figgered that they still spoke English 'cos their culture had almost completely stagnated. Keeping things as they were was a major theme from the original, and a language only develops as the users do.

>The apes have different Glyphs on other things like their uniforms. Are those symbols part of their writen language too?

THAT'S a good point. I could see the glyphs being some sort of standardized ornamentation. We have a lot of cultures on Earth today that use similar designs.

Don C.

[YANOULI]

one thing has always puzzled me, that is how Cornelius Zira and Milo got the Icarus off the bottom of the inland sea, found the escape hatch that was jettisoned and made it flyable in so short a time, not to mention launching it.
Plus they would have to have done it Just after the Gorilla's left for the forbidden zone in " Beneath ", because in " Escape " Zira says how she saw the Earth disintergrate.

[Seeker]

one thing has always puzzled me, that is how Cornelius Zira and Milo got the Icarus off the bottom of the inland sea, found the escape hatch that was jettisoned and made it flyable in so short a time, not to mention launching it.
Plus they would have to have done it Just after the Gorilla's left for the forbidden zone in " Beneath ", because in " Escape " Zira says how she saw the Earth disintergrate.

Lets look at this big flaw for a min.....

How long did Zira and Cornelius have to do what they did. First it doesnt look like much time passed from when Taylor said goodby to when He got captured by the mutants. (Flashback from beneath).

In that time Zira and Cornelius went back to ape city, stood trial, somehow got off, met Dr Milo, planned another forbidden zone trip, searched for and found the inland sea.

They found Taylors ship. Hopefully the sea was very shallow since the apes had NO scuba gear or sonar. Using ropes and pullies salvaged a ship that weighed several tons filled with water.(Just the three of them and some horses)

They reverse engineered the ship. (At least enough to repair and fly it) The most modern technology they had were the firearms. yet they figured out the ships electrical and computer systems. (Sorry even if Taylor left a "Starship Repair and Operations Book for Dummies" on board I doubt that would help) Even if the ship was super user friendly it crashed and spent how long filled with water. I doubt it was up to parr.

They returned to ape city sat in a meeting, met Brent. When they said goodby to Brent they somehow raced back to the forbiden zone to prep and launch the ship before the army reached the dead city. Did they know about the missle? Why rush to launch?

The whole matter is moot anyway. Taylor landed in 3978 AD. Brent and the rescue party landed 3955 AD. 23 years before Taylor even got lost in the first place.

Oh and Zira was a vet. Cornelius didn't look much like an engineer he was just an archeologist. That Milo must have been one hell of an ape to do most of that by himself.

[Vortigern99]

It all rests on the backstory of the mysterious Dr. Milo, who according to C was "ahead of his time" and knew things the other apes did not. We may postulate, then, that Milo had salvaged Taylor's ship on his own in the interim between Films 1 and 2. He was working on it, discovering its secrets, and planning to travel through space with it before Brent showed up. Milo then learned of the ape assault of the mutant city, realized the earth's destruction was imminent (because he also knew of the Alpha-Omega bomb), asked C and Z to help him pilot the the ship, and somehow managed to escape the planet's atmosphere with enough fuel to last the duration of the journey.

Makes perfect sense.

[ctc]

>it doesnt look like much time passed from when Taylor said goodby to when He got captured by the mutants. (Flashback from beneath).

Hmmmm.... it looked like a week or so; could have been months.... That is a tough call.

>In that time Zira and Cornelius went back to ape city, stood trial, somehow got off, met Dr Milo, planned another forbidden zone trip, searched for and found the inland sea.

This I can see not taking so long. Zira and Cornelius seem to be fairly close to Zaius; and he probably pulled some strings. I'd bet they already knew Milo. The chimps seemed pretty close as a group in the other films and the Ape City scientific community seems pretty close knit too.

>They found Taylors ship. Hopefully the sea was very shallow since the apes had NO scuba gear or sonar. Using ropes and pullies salvaged a ship that weighed several tons filled with water.

Finding it was probably pretty easy. Cornelius was the local cartographer; wasn't he? Extracting the ship would have been trickier, but I could see it being done. Archaeology seems to be a highly developed science in Ape City, so they'd probably have all sorts of techniques for dredging, reclamation and the like.

>They reverse engineered the ship.... Even if the ship was super user friendly it crashed and spent how long filled with water. I doubt it was up to parr.

Hmmmm.... We never really know how badly damaged it is, or how deep it sunk. (Could have been only a few meters.) I'm not sure how much damage water would do to it. Part of the problem gauging this is based on the idea that the ship was launched in our (the audience's) past; but it's supposed to be higher tech than we have now. Water would definitely have baked the electronics in one of our ships; but I'm willing to let them get away with it. Perhaps the innards are based on a super-modular design (for ease of construction, modification and customization) and the important components are self-contained and environmentally protected. (That's where modern military equipment is going: plug and run sort of stuff.)

Flying the ship may not have been that difficult. With the crew in suspended animation for the flight it'd require good automation. I could see the apes almost accidentally activating it.

>When they said goodby to Brent they somehow raced back to the forbiden zone to prep and launch the ship before the army reached the dead city. Did they know about the missle? Why rush to launch?

Maybe the ship was nearby; and they wanted to go in a hurry 'cos they didn't exactly know when the autopilot might launch it again? Tying in with the idea that they'd only accidentally got it to work in the first place.

>The whole matter is moot anyway. Taylor landed in 3978 AD. Brent and the rescue party landed 3955 AD. 23 years before Taylor even got lost.

HAW! See, time got warped, and stuff was moved around int he continuum.... and... er....

>Oh and Zira was a vet. Cornelius didn't look much like an engineer he was just an archeologist. That Milo must have been one hell of an ape to do most of that by himself.

It'd almost be worth doing a movie about Milo's back-story. I got the impression that science wasn't as specific as it is now; that there was a lot of cross-training in Ape City. Hence guys like Zaius, who seemed to have dabbled in everything.

Don C.

[Action Martin]

With BENEATH I still laugh when Taylor pulls his dog tags out of nowhere to give them to Nova. I keep picturing Taylor running around Ape City in the first film with the dog tags and chains hidden in his buttocks.

My main problem with CONQUEST is that Caesar was named "Milo" in ESCAPE by his parents. At the beginning of CONQUEST Armando calls him "Caesar". When Governor Breck wins Caesar at auction, he brings back a tradition that his wife started and lets his pet name himself by opening a book of names, flipping the pages, and then randomly pointing at a name. And Caesar just happens to land on "Caesar". Now I can accept the intelligence of Casesar to flip through the book until he saw the "C"s and then his own name and slyly choose it. But why was his name Casaer at the beginning of the movie? Armando would not have needed to change it from Milo to hide him from the authorities because 1) the baby of Cornelius and Zira was thought to have been killed (although searches were continued afterwards) and 2) no one outside of Stevie, Lewis, and Armando knew that the baby's name was Milo.

[ctc]

>But why was his name Casaer at the beginning of the movie?

Good question. Did Armando KNOW his name was Milo? Even so, Armando was a showman and probably called him Caesar 'cos it sounded a lot better than Milo.

To him, anyhoo....

Don C.