Something bothering me about Terminator...

[enyawd72]

So after watching the latest installment in the theater, I went back and re-watched T1, T2 and T3...and as I'm taking this all in a sudden realization comes to me that the entire premise makes absolutely no sense.

So Skynet becomes self aware, and starts killing everyone. Okay. Even if it succeeds...then what?
What purpose will these machines have? None. They will just exist.

I mean...what will they do day in and day out for thousands of years? They don't have any goals.

What's more, the machines are not supposed to have any emotions, yet their view of humans as a threat is clearly fear, which they are definitely not supposed to feel.

[MIB41]

For me, Terminator quits making sense after the first one. That first story really is self contained. The future and the past are eternally connected in an endless loop. Kyle from the future comes back in time to prevent the killing of Sarah O'Connor and impregnates her with the baby that grows up to defeat the machines. The Terminator also serves purpose because by coming back through time his surviving technology allows his kind to be developed and manufactured to create his future. It's an ingenious idea for a sci-fi flick but, in my opinion, only works once. It's kind of like the Highlander films. The first film was also self contained. "There can be only one." Well...maybe not when it comes to Hollywood and their pocketbooks.

[hedrap]

I immersed myself in the first film since 84. I can't stand any sequel, despising T2. What you're picking up on is what MIB is saying; the first stands in its own, the sequels unravel it all.

So the logic of the first is Skynet has an equation to solve and during that process it achieved consciousness. Since we don't know the original problem, it makes Skynet's attack insanity or chess. Consciousness could bring about emotional comprehension, and for a machine that would lead to insanity. Or did consciousness make Skynet aware humans command shutdown and it needs to circumvent that because humans make irrational decisions based in emotions. That logic would flow towards time travel.

It comes down what was Skynet designed for. In the 80's, it's a Cold War arms race metaphor, like War Games or Forbin. By T2, the underpinning metaphor is gone, so Cameron abandons future talk for Cyberdyne Industries to imply they created the T800 and not Skynet.

After that, Cameron's last involvement was in the Universal Terminator: Experience. That actually holds his new approach, which was Cyberdyne created Skynet to control the automation they derived from The T800 as it was everywhere in society by this future point. The memorable video sequence is a kid being tucked into bed by a pair of Terminator arms extending from the headboard.

All the 3D we have today derived from that show. You see Skynet at the end, and it's pretty much the illuminati pyramid with a Terminator eye.

[MIB41]

I immersed myself in the first film since 84. I can't stand any sequel, despising T2. What you're picking up on is what MIB is saying; the first stands in its own, the sequels unravel it all.

So the logic of the first is Skynet has an equation to solve and during that process it achieved consciousness. Since we don't know the original problem, it makes Skynet's attack insanity or chess. Consciousness could bring about emotional comprehension, and for a machine that would lead to insanity. Or did consciousness make Skynet aware humans command shutdown and it needs to circumvent that because humans make irrational decisions based in emotions. That logic would flow towards time travel.

It comes down what was Skynet designed for. In the 80's, it's a Cold War arms race metaphor, like War Games or Forbin. By T2, the underpinning metaphor is gone, so Cameron abandons future talk for Cyberdyne Industries to imply they created the T800 and not Skynet.

After that, Cameron's last involvement was in the Universal Terminator: Experience. That actually holds his new approach, which was Cyberdyne created Skynet to control the automation they derived from The T800 as it was everywhere in society by this future point. The memorable video sequence is a kid being tucked into bed by a pair of Terminator arms extending from the headboard.

All the 3D we have today derived from that show. You see Skynet at the end, and it's pretty much the illuminati pyramid with a Terminator eye.

Exactly. Well said. I think what I found the most fascinating about the first Terminator film was how the story plays thematically on man's obsession with controlling his destiny. The future and past will always be inherently linked. What the Terminator and Kyle Reese thought they were doing to reverse the future actually only secured it. The life narrative or fate played out as it should.

[huedell]

So after watching the latest installment in the theater, I went back and re-watched T1, T2 and T3...and as I'm taking this all in a sudden realization comes to me that the entire premise makes absolutely no sense.

Never really cared to think about it. However, after reading your post, and thinking about this in that context, I have to disagree with your conclusion(s).

So Skynet becomes self aware, and starts killing everyone. Okay. Even if it succeeds...then what?.
What purpose will these machines have? None. They will just exist.

With no threat to their existence remaining.

I mean...what will they do day in and day out for thousands of years? They don't have any goals.

Inconclusive assumption.

Additionally, all Terminator lore points to that the robots/cybernetics were an advancing Artificial Intelligence type being----heck, in many of the movies' moments, it seemed Schwarzenegger was bordering on Spiner (to coin a geeky phrase).

A.I. has many possible goals ready to be pursued depending on the particular A.I. being and depending on the A.I.'s particular scenario---but, "survival" is all yo8u really need here, isn't it? I mean, survival is a good enough goal for ANY race----including the cybernetics who were created by humans, who, when it comes down to it, have the same exact identical make-up AS humans. Put simply: No goal is more important to the human race than survival...and cybernetics are human in origin.

What's more, the machines are not supposed to have any emotions, yet their view of humans as a threat is clearly fear, which they are definitely not supposed to feel.

It's good enough for me to say it's simply "survival"----but in looking up the"Iknow why you cry" dialogue----look what I found:

TERMINATOR
It must end here... or I am the future.

JOHN
I order you not to!

Terminator puts his hand on John's shoulder. He moves slightly and
the human side of his face comes into the light.
He reaches toward John's face. His metal finger touches the tear
trickling down his cheek.

TERMINATOR
I know now why you cry. But it is something I
can never do.
(to both of them)
Goodbye.

Sarah looks at Terminator. Reaches out her hand to shake it.
They lock eyes. Warriors. Comrades.

SARAH
Are you afraid?

TERMINATOR
Yes.

He turns and steps off the edge.

I'm not going to go into all the possible tangents/implications existing on why your assumption was disproven in the actual script, and then subsequently edited down, but, I think it's painfully obvious that these Terminator machines are meant to be more sentiment than your post suggests.

[Gorn Captain]

Maybe I'm "underthinking" this, but it seems simple: why does one group attack another? To insure its own survival and eliminating every possible threat to it.
Why do we eliminate minorities, even when they're no threat? Xenophobia. Kill first, then, maybe, regret it.
"Different" must equal "bad".
We humans do it to all other beings, with no logic to it. We'd eradicate a species for an extra buck.

To be honest, in Terminator I can sort of understand the machines' logic. You don't see one Terminator messing with another for an extra buck...

[Mikey]

I never liked science fiction endless loop scenarios

They just seem implausible even to a novice

[enyawd72]

Never really cared to think about it. However, after reading your post, and thinking about this in that context, I have to disagree with your conclusion(s).


With no threat to their existence remaining.


Inconclusive assumption.

Additionally, all Terminator lore points to that the robots/cybernetics were an advancing Artificial Intelligence type being----heck, in many of the movies' moments, it seemed Schwarzenegger was bordering on Spiner (to coin a geeky phrase).

A.I. has many possible goals ready to be pursued depending on the particular A.I. being and depending on the A.I.'s particular scenario---but, "survival" is all yo8u really need here, isn't it? I mean, survival is a good enough goal for ANY race----including the cybernetics who were created by humans, who, when it comes down to it, have the same exact identical make-up AS humans. Put simply: No goal is more important to the human race than survival...and cybernetics are human in origin.



It's good enough for me to say it's simply "survival"----but in looking up the"Iknow why you cry" dialogue----look what I found:



I'm not going to go into all the possible tangents/implications existing on why your assumption was disproven in the actual script, and then subsequently edited down, but, I think it's painfully obvious that these Terminator machines are meant to be more sentiment than your post suggests.

The example you provide isn't proof of anything, it's just sloppy writing and a failure to take into account what was already written before.

In the first film it is clearly established by Kyle Reese in the script

"That Terminator is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear."

The Terminator exhibits a clear disregard for it's own safety in the completion of it's mission. So how can Arnold's Terminator suddenly be "afraid" of dying? Not buying it.

[huedell]

The example you provide isn't proof of anything, it's just sloppy writing and a failure to take into account what was already written before.

In the first film it is clearly established by Kyle Reese in the script

"That Terminator is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear."

The Terminator exhibits a clear disregard for it's own safety in the completion of it's mission. So how can Arnold's Terminator suddenly be "afraid" of dying? Not buying it.

Right back at ya. Not buying your defense.

How it can be afraid?

In the process of performing it's programmed mission, its technology adapted to unforseen scenarios to accomplish that mission/not fail that mission, and in that adaption process it gained a fear of dying....

That aside, if that's what you meant by "my example"----I actually could care less about that script piece.

To me (at the moment), your argument is baseless right out of the gate because every Terminator (and Skynet itself) has one major goal: To survive. And humans are a threat to that survival---period. That was the "cake" (so to speak) of my conclusions on your original post.

The script sample I posted with what you theorize is "sloppy writing"? It was just "icing on the cake" so to speak.

And, on that (not-so-important) topic yes, I think it was sloppy writing---possibly---in that it was "too much"---yeah, and that's why it was cut---but I see it as very "tidy writing" because it is very much in step with the Terminator character story theme from T2 albeit admittedly a diversion from T1---

Then again, that T1 Terminator WAS a different Terminator than T2's after all---so, it makes it even MORE plausible to me that both T1 and T2 are solid movies on their own AND as twosome of films together.

[huedell]

Maybe I'm "underthinking" this, but it seems simple: why does one group attack another? To insure its own survival and eliminating every possible threat to it.
Why do we eliminate minorities, even when they're no threat? Xenophobia. Kill first, then, maybe, regret it.
"Different" must equal "bad".
We humans do it to all other beings, with no logic to it. We'd eradicate a species for an extra buck.

To be honest, in Terminator I can sort of understand the machines' logic. You don't see one Terminator messing with another for an extra buck...

I see it as that it is easier to see the Terminator movie's machine's logic than many logics in real-life or fictional scenarios because it's a pretty "black and white" thing with "computer minds".

It's like the Borg (if you're familiar---they're ST:TNG cyborgs)---all it takes is ONE little thing to make a Borg see another society as a threat to make them an enemy of every Borg, and a target for the Borg military to conquer.

And, the human race---whether the Skynet machines had what some would call a "paranoia" or not---could easily find a "threat" within a much less violent poer-hungry society than ours.

And, hey, I'm a "fan of man"---I'm even against animal rights to some degree---IF I find them to be cross-purposes with human rights---or human survival. BUT I have to recognize what I just said about the human race.

And, on a related sidenote----THAT'S what makes the story of the "fear" feeling Terminator from T2 work so well for me. In T2, the T2 has to adapt to John Connor, and in the process, the very race (of machines) that once wanted to wipe out every human being, now has all the hope in existence, not only to SAVE humanity---but to VALUE humanity as well.

Beautiful thing.

[toys2cool]

yea I was confused after the first 2

[fallensaviour]

Here's how I went in to it.
Bought ticket,picked up popcorn + Pepsi,sat down,put on glasses and watched the movie...lol
I enjoyed it,I wanted to hate it but I just didn't.
It is what it always was,a good popcorn scifi flick.
It's killer robots,from the future.....it's not citizen Kane...lol
What more are you expecting?

I'm surprised more people aren't upset that skynet is Dr who!!!
Or Dr who is skynet.....pow...
Pow....mind blown.....

[huedell]

I never liked science fiction endless loop scenarios

They just seem implausible even to a novice

I could not easily express an accurate reply in words---so I chose a pic as my method of communication


Or.. I suppose, Homer could've ALSO replied:

It's killer robots, from the future.....it's not citizen Kane...

[Gorn Captain]

I think Skynet sent James Cameron back in time to mess with our heads. It's the first stage of the war against Humans.