Wow, Marina Sirtis was almost a Latina in TNG

[K]

HardyGirl,

I've seen clips from Cons of her talking about that. She's hilarious!

[huedell]

Huedell...Would you feel the same if any old actor played the Falcon (John Leguizamo?), Luke Cage (Jackie Chan with a tan?), the Mandarin (Steven Sagal?) or Sunfire (Tom Cruise with make up to make him look Japanese?)...

If they did fine with the role then I wouldn't (and SHOULDN'T) complain.
I don't understand the idea that the most appropriate actor, or the
most accomadating actor should get the role is somehow "wrong".
Next thing you know, there'll be cries for REAL Klingons to play Klingons in movies
(well, its the same idea anyway...).

I think it's a huge insult to actors of the characters' ethnicities to not get the roles...Losing out to more popular actors (regardless of ethnicity).

THIS scenario? Like samurai said in his great post..."gray areas" man, "gray areas"

Well, sometimes "big names" sell a movie and that's that...just business.

Do I care about this?

I can EMPATHIZE with this plight...but "empathy" is about all I can offer as I've never
witnessed a casting decision like this that I objected to, as maybe others have
witnessed such--- and been irritated by because of.

[HardyGirl]

HardyGirl,

I've seen clips from Cons of her talking about that. She's hilarious!

Have you seen her and Michael Dorn together? Hysterical!

[K]

No but she referenced Michael's nickname for Troi in a YouTube interview. He nicknamed Troi "Space Wh*re". LOL!!!

[samurainoir]

I have to admit that one of my favourite old time noir films is A Touch of Evil.

Charleton Heston in Blackface playing a Mexican doesn't cut it today.

In fact, it becomes downright laughable at times viewed within the context of a contemporary audience.
At the time, I'm sure it was extremely progressive that the lead character was supposedly Latino.

I would really love to see Benicio del Toro take on that role if they remade it today. (He's Puerto Rican right?)

[jds1911a1]

If Eli wallach can play a mexican in the good the bad and the ugly anyone can be cast in any enthnicity

[johnmiic]

With the exception of being racist or purposefully insulting a particular group I see no reason why anyone couldn't play any ethnicity in film, tv, stage and radio if they had the talent to do so.

This was a real bone of contention in NYC in the late 1980's when Miss Siagon came to America and Jonathan Pryce was slated to play an asian man and was required to wear fake asian eye makeup & prosthetics for the part. The actors guild really raised a stink over it and shot themselves in the foot.

The purpose of being an actor is to pretend, to try and be someone, something you are not. To convince people of the illusion. To create a character that lives and breathes. That is the whole of acting. You can't try and limit that or put conditions on it.

[huedell]

^^^^That about sums it up john---no overt racism or insults, and, well, the
"land of imagination" for actors---and casting people is an open game I believe

[jds1911a1]

With the exception of being racist or purposefully insulting a particular group I see no reason why anyone couldn't play any ethnicity in film, tv, stage and radio if they had the talent to do so.

This was a real bone of contention in NYC in the late 1980's when Miss Siagon came to America and Jonathan Pryce was slated to play an asian man and was required to wear fake asian eye makeup & prosthetics for the part. The actors guild really raised a stink over it and shot themselves in the foot.

The purpose of being an actor is to pretend, to try and be someone, something you are not. To convince people of the illusion. To create a character that lives and breathes. That is the whole of acting. You can't try and limit that or put conditions on it.

similiarly Joel Grey (cabaret) plays a Korean, Chuin in Remo williams and is great (my wife is korean so I am not unfamiliar with elderly Korean men)

[kept back]

And through this whole thread no one mentions the prejudice against ugly actors! As an ugly american I call foul out the beautiful Charlize Theron wearing prosthetic to make herslef ugly in Monster. Or the Stunning Nicole Kidman wearing a fake nose and greasy wig in The Hours. Your telling me they couldn't have found an ugly actress to pick up those Oscar nominated/winning roles? Or would an unnattractive but equally talented actress have even been nominated for those roles? Or how about the number of people who have picked up awards for playing mentally challenged individuals in film? It seems that the show Life Goes On proved that someone with a disability can act. But Dustin Hoffman plays an austisitc and the crowd goes wild. Sean Penn can pretend to be mentally challenged and the critics applaud. Alongside the cries of blackface, I call for cries of Ugly Mentally Impaired face!

[Hector]

I have to admit that one of my favourite old time noir films is A Touch of Evil.

Charleton Heston in Blackface playing a Mexican doesn't cut it today.

http://www.vafilm.com/1995/images/touch_of_evil.gif

In fact, it becomes downright laughable at times viewed within the context of a contemporary audience.
At the time, I'm sure it was extremely progressive that the lead character was supposedly Latino.

I would really love to see Benicio del Toro take on that role if they remade it today. (He's Puerto Rican right?)

Mexicans would be in an uproar if they were to see a Puerto Rican playing one of them (or vice versa), lol.

The Mexican media was very critical when Jennifer Lopez played Selena, they just hated it.

Go figure, lol.

If Eli wallach can play a mexican in the good the bad and the ugly anyone can be cast in any enthnicity

Exactly.

"With the exception of being racist or purposefully insulting a particular group I see no reason why anyone couldn't play any ethnicity in film, tv, stage and radio if they had the talent to do so.

This was a real bone of contention in NYC in the late 1980's when Miss Siagon came to America and Jonathan Pryce was slated to play an asian man and was required to wear fake asian eye makeup & prosthetics for the part. The actors guild really raised a stink over it and shot themselves in the foot.

The purpose of being an actor is to pretend, to try and be someone, something you are not. To convince people of the illusion. To create a character that lives and breathes. That is the whole of acting. You can't try and limit that or put conditions on it."

Well said, Johnmiic.

[samurainoir]

similiarly Joel Grey (cabaret) plays a Korean, Chuin in Remo williams and is great (my wife is korean so I am not unfamiliar with elderly Korean men)

I had mentioned Joel Grey in my previous post because I didn't think it was very cool for him to go yellowface when you had Key Luke, James Hong, James Shigeta, and so many other Asian actors that could have easily stepped into this role (At that point Pat Morita was probably too tied in to Mr Miyagi). It's not like these guys really have much of an equal opportunity chance to play caucasians in films y'know?

I'm cool with Japanese/Korean/Chinese and other Asians crossing the divides IF they can pull it off convincingly, because it's an even playing field for all involved. What I don't want to see is a guy identified as Japanese, speaking Cantonese.

Bad enough that they were generally limited to roles as "mysterious asians guys", waiters in chinese restaurants and martial arts instructors.

I attended a screening of the French film L'idole a few years ago where the director described how overjoyed and emotionally moved James Hong was at being cast in this movie after so many decades of the same tired stereotypical walk-on scenes.

With the exception of being racist or purposefully insulting a particular group I see no reason why anyone couldn't play any ethnicity in film, tv, stage and radio if they had the talent to do so.

This was a real bone of contention in NYC in the late 1980's when Miss Siagon came to America and Jonathan Pryce was slated to play an asian man and was required to wear fake asian eye makeup & prosthetics for the part. The actors guild really raised a stink over it and shot themselves in the foot.

The purpose of being an actor is to pretend, to try and be someone, something you are not. To convince people of the illusion. To create a character that lives and breathes. That is the whole of acting. You can't try and limit that or put conditions on it.

For me, this will start to take on an even more fascinating intercultural sociological dimension now that computer generated motion capture characters are a reality and the potential does exist for an actor to take on any form, not just the imaginary ones like Gollum and King Kong. Michael Clarke Duncan can theoretically play Woody Allen and vice versa.

It does potentially open up the playing field, but I would think that it is a bit of a landmine.

Mexicans would be in an uproar if they were to see a Puerto Rican playing one of them (or vice versa), lol.

The Mexican media was very critical when Jennifer Lopez played Selena, they just hated it.

Go figure, lol.

Keep in mind we are being critical of a Hollywood system that has historically cast caucasians as latino lead characters, while at the same time excluding those same minorities from leading roles. We are fortunate these days that there are superstar latinos like Jennifer Lopez's around to vy for those roles where there once weren't.

I'm not suprised that the media in Mexico was critical over that casting decision. I'm sure they wanted one of their own homegrown stars to fill that role (just as the Japanese were in an uproar over the Memoirs of a Geisha casting).

I'm just curious, how often do Spanish speakers notice descrepancies in regional/cultural differences when watching spanish spoken on English American Television? I'm sure the different accents can often be obvious givaways when they cast across Mexican/Puerto Rican/Cuban/Central and South American lines.



At the end of the day, I think there should be a bit more solidarity amongst minorities when it comes to this kind of thing. Or do you think that battle has been pretty much "won" with shows like Grey's Anatomy, Heroes and Lost featuring such a diverse and multi-ethnic cast?

I mean I had no problem with a black actor playing Kingpin in Daredevil because he was the best physical casting choice in my mind. Whereas I wouldn't necessarily think it was okay for Christian Bale to be cast as Black Panther.

And through this whole thread no one mentions the prejudice against ugly actors! As an ugly american I call foul out the beautiful Charlize Theron wearing prosthetic to make herslef ugly in Monster. Or the Stunning Nicole Kidman wearing a fake nose and greasy wig in The Hours. Your telling me they couldn't have found an ugly actress to pick up those Oscar nominated/winning roles? Or would an unnattractive but equally talented actress have even been nominated for those roles? Or how about the number of people who have picked up awards for playing mentally challenged individuals in film? It seems that the show Life Goes On proved that someone with a disability can act. But Dustin Hoffman plays an austisitc and the crowd goes wild. Sean Penn can pretend to be mentally challenged and the critics applaud. Alongside the cries of blackface, I call for cries of Ugly Mentally Impaired face!

Not to mention the obese. I think Eddie Murphy pretty much has an entire second career thanks to "fat suit" technology.

Although it's not like Kathy Bates or Roseanne Barr or John Candy have been excluded from the process no?

Your last point does kind of tug at me since I had worked many years as a community worker trying to integrate developmentally challenged folks into environments where they can live independantly and with dignity. As a filmmaker, given my lean timelines and budgetary restrictions, I know there is no way I could accomodate the realities associated with a developmentally challenged person in a non-documentary scripted fictional lead role, at least to the extent we are talking about with examples such as My Left Foot and Rain Man. I think I would have a bit more leaway with a character like Sean Penn's in I am Sam who is shown to be more functionally able to the extent that he has an independent living arrangment. The kind of budgets you get in Hollywood might be a different story, but outside of the positive publicity, what major studio would be willing to take that gamble? Particularly since the person in question would be an unknown without the box office draw of Dustin Hoffman? Maybe it is time that someone with clout stepped in to try to address that disparity.

[ABMAC]

Kingpin is an entirely different thing altogether. Michael Clarke Duncan didn't play Kingpin in whiteface, he played him as a black character. Similarly, there's no reason Bale couldn't play Back Panther as a white man, but I'd see it as a gratuitous change to an established character. I hate when Hollywood messes with stuff just because they can.

When actors play characters outside their own ethnicity, I guess it depends on the skill of the actor involved and the director's insistence on authenticity. I don't think Marina Sirtis can convincingly play a Latin American, nor could Charlton Heston, but Linda Hunt won an Academy Award for playing a half-Chinese man in The Year of Living Dangerously, and I think everyone was equally creeped out that her performance was so believable.

Hellboy's Nazi ninja, Kroenen, was played by a black man. That didn't bother me at all, because the actor had special skills that the role required, and he didn't have to portray a "normal" white man. Anyone can play a monster, but the closer a character is to "normal," the more critical I am.

[samurainoir]

Kingpin is an entirely different thing altogether. Michael Clarke Duncan didn't play Kingpin in whiteface, he played him as a black character. Similarly, there's no reason Bale couldn't play Back Panther as a white man, but I'd see it as a gratuitous change to an established character. I hate when Hollywood messes with stuff just because they can.

When actors play characters outside their own ethnicity, I guess it depends on the skill of the actor involved and the director's insistence on authenticity. I don't think Marina Sirtis can convincingly play a Latin American, nor could Charlton Heston, but Linda Hunt won an Academy Award for playing a half-Chinese man in The Year of Living Dangerously, and I think everyone was equally creeped out that her performance was so believable.

Hellboy's Nazi ninja, Kroenen, was played by a black man. That didn't bother me at all, because the actor had special skills that the role required, and he didn't have to portray a "normal" white man. Anyone can play a monster, but the closer a character is to "normal," the more critical I am.

I think the ironic thing about Michael Clarke Duncan being cast as Kingpin was the fact that I did hear arguments about it from pretty much all sides of the fence. Beyond the back and forth whether the character in the movie should be the same race as the character in the source material or not, I recall having a conversation where I mentioned that I approved of the "colourblind" casting choice, but it was pointed out to me that it could be equally problematic in some ways that the flip was based around a character that was a criminal. Although in this day and age I'm feeling that there are enogh black leading men out there playing heroes that this is more easily balanced out.

I'm feeling that intrinsic to the essence of Black Panther as a character is the fact that he is the sovereign ruler of an African Nation. A bit more problematic if Christian Bale did play it as a white man given the history of white rule on that continent.

On the other hand, I don't doubt that Bale has the acting chops to convincingly pull off a performance as a black man from a fictional nation in Africa. I mean look at the ends he went to with a role like the Machinist. Prosthetics/CGI modification could easily create a convincing illusion along with the proper dialogue/accent coaching. Whether a contemporary audience would be cool with that given the negative history of blackface and minstrel shows is another matter entirely.

Keep in mind what is and is not considered acceptable shifts generationally, and even then it's all about a "consensual reality" that is not necessarily (and cannot possibly) shared by everyone. Uncle Tom is seen as a derogatory term these days, but there is also an argument that Uncle Tom's Cabin helped bring about the abolition of slavery in America. At the time, the book was considered socially progressive.


I thnk we are all agreed here that "Blackface Bad", but we have a more of a divide around whether there can truly be "colourblind" casting or not given how minorities have been treated within the Hollywood system in the past, and whether or not there is still any lingering residue of that past which still impacts casting choices today (both on the pro and con side). I'm personally of the opinion that so-called Reverse-Racism in the realm of casting is not really an existing issue in front of the camera when it comes to Hollywood in this day and age, but then again maybe that is naive of me.

[ABMAC]

I think the ironic thing about Michael Clarke Duncan being cast as Kingpin was the fact that I did hear arguments about it from pretty much all sides of the fence. Beyond the back and forth whether the character in the movie should be the same race as the character in the source material or not, I recall having a conversation where I mentioned that I approved of the "colourblind" casting choice, but it was pointed out to me that it could be equally problematic in some ways that the flip was based around a character that was a criminal. Although in this day and age I'm feeling that there are enogh black leading men out there playing heroes that this is more easily balanced out.

I'm feeling that intrinsic to the essence of Black Panther as a character is the fact that he is the sovereign ruler of an African Nation. A bit more problematic if Christian Bale did play it as a white man given the history of white rule on that continent.

On the other hand, I don't doubt that Bale has the acting chops to convincingly pull off a performance as a black man from a fictional nation in Africa. I mean look at the ends he went to with a role like the Machinist. Prosthetics/CGI modification could easily create a convincing illusion along with the proper dialogue/accent coaching. Whether a contemporary audience would be cool with that given the negative history of blackface and minstrel shows is another matter entirely.

Keep in mind what is and is not considered acceptable shifts generationally, and even then it's all about a "consensual reality" that is not necessarily (and cannot possibly) shared by everyone. Uncle Tom is seen as a derogatory term these days, but there is also an argument that Uncle Tom's Cabin helped bring about the abolition of slavery in America. At the time, the book was considered socially progressive.


I thnk we are all agreed here that "Blackface Bad", but we have a more of a divide around whether there can truly be "colourblind" casting or not given how minorities have been treated within the Hollywood system in the past, and whether or not there is still any lingering residue of that past which still impacts casting choices today (both on the pro and con side). I'm personally of the opinion that so-called Reverse-Racism in the realm of casting is not really an existing issue in front of the camera when it comes to Hollywood in this day and age, but then again maybe that is naive of me.

I'm not familiar with whatever comic Kingpin appears in, so MCD's casting was moot as far as I was concerned. It did bother me when Will Smith was cast as James West in Wild Wild West, because I was a fan of the original television show, and because I felt that his casting was a gratuitous case of reverse discrimination. I think it ultimately hurt the movie at the box office, because a black hero in post-Civil War America was too much of a stretch for American audiences to accept. Colourblind is good, but historical revisionism is bad.

As for actors donning prosthetics and such to cross ethnic boundaries in acting, the main problem is that it implies there aren't any suitable actors of the "proper" ethnicity to play the roles. When it's true, as wih Kroenen, it's not a problem, but for a "normal" actor like Will Smith or Marina Sirtis, it's insulting.