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Hmmmm....
My friend Rob wrote this article; referring to derivative fan fiction, but I DO think it applies to all the "new" shows and movies we've been inundated with lately. Flash, Galactica, Night Stalker... this pretty much covers it:
Don C.Comment
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I saw it today and it's just garbage-it's areal dog. As ever Sci-fi is adhering to the theory that sci-fi fans will eat up whatever feeces they serve us;especially when the commercials during this krap are for a film called Mega-Snake and the set-up as the guy narrates is an obvious rip-off of the rules for feeding Gremlins. As it is I wouldn't mind seeing sci-fi channel going out of business. I don't see what purpose the channel serves.Comment
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Going back to the last page on this thread about Sci-Fi Channel .........
I do have to laugh about what they call "an original Sci Fi Channel production"
I don't trust them anymore.
If you guys will remember----- they used to call Doctor Who, the New Series SEASON ONE an "an original Sci Fi Channel production".
Now they don't say that ...
Makes me wonder if the BBC told them to stop taking credit for things that aren't theirs
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George Lucas discovered with Nute Gunray and Jar Jar Binks, that even he couldn't get away with disguising past era offensive ethnic stereotypes in the guise of aliens. They are too ingrained in the public consciousness.
One the otherhand, making the new Ming's uniform evocative of Nazi uniforms is kind of a lazy scifi short cut (Lucas did it close to thirty years ago).
I say fully embrace the Asiatic influences and "yellow peril" xenophobia which informed the creation and name of the original Ming a century ago, and turn it on it's ear for the 21st century. We see what a wonderfully complex character a reinvented Baltar can be. Create a Ming that what he does in his belief that he is doing this for the greater good of his people. Hire an Asian actor that can play the subtle shades of a villian that has motivations beyond being "evil".
In the pages of Planetary, Warren Ellis recreated Fu Manchu in a non-offensive and compelling contemporary manner that shed new light on his potrayal in the past and made him a very relevant and real character.
Last edited by samurainoir; Aug 13, '07, 12:43 PM.Comment
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With a character called " Ming " how could they not go with an asian actor, or look?
I reckon George Takei would've been good.Last edited by YANOULI; Aug 14, '07, 2:38 AM." But you can't kill me, i'm a Genius "Comment
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>George Lucas discovered with Nute Gunray and Jar Jar Binks, that even he couldn't get away with disguising past era offensive ethnic stereotypes in the guise of aliens. They are too ingrained in the public consciousness.
Hmmmm.... dunno if I'd say the problem here was the stereotyping or the really poorly concieved characters. JarJar was JUST irritating. He could have talked with damned near any accent and he'd STILL be irritating!
*sigh*
>One the otherhand, making the new Ming's uniform evocative of Nazi uniforms is kind of a lazy scifi short cut
Yeah, definitely. I kinda see the new Ming as being cut more from the current cloth rather than actually intentionally playing on the ol' Nazi thing. His outfit is pretty much a generic modern sci-fi space guy uniform. Like I said, he reminded me of a young Adama from the new Galactica.
>I say fully embrace the Asiatic influences and "yellow peril" xenophobia which informed the creation and name of the original Ming a century ago, and turn it on it's ear for the 21st century.
OR play it straight. We're currently in the grips of ANOTHER "Yellow Peril," conidering the fears of China taking our jobs, and sending us poisoned toothpaste. (Sorta like Japan was played the last time the 80's happened....) Or design him like they did int he 80's film. He's an alien who sort of happens to wear an outfit that looks like Mandarin robes. You could make him green like the Filmation version.... all of which captured more of the original than the current one.
>We see what a wonderfully complex character a reinvented Baltar can be.
So.... you want Ming to have a nekkid chick living in his head too....?
>Create a Ming that what he does in his belief that he is doing this for the greater good of his people.
Or don't. I don't think there's anything wrong with having an evil guy who's just evil. It's been so long since anyone's done that it'd be a delightful change. Giving him depth and redeeming qualities and such really makes him just like every other sci-fi bad guy we've seen in the last few years.
>Hire an Asian actor that can play the subtle shades of a villian that has motivations beyond being "evil".
I don't think ethnicity is a real problem here. But I really think Ming would be better served by not having subtleties. It'd be more in line with the source material. Sure; that was back when comics weren't really big on depth and characterization; but I think that's one of the elements that made the older comics different. And if you're gonna draw from them, take what made them different; rather than taking the name, the look and slapping the current standard story onto them.
Don C.Comment
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I was able to catch bits of the pilot and what I saw was just bad.
I can forgive lack second rate special effects, sets that look like a high school basement, & actors that look like extras from The Bronx is Burning. I can't forgive a total lack of passion from everyone involved. If your not going to attempt to be faithful to the source material, then don't call it Flash Gordon. Call it Square Head vs. The Green Grocer dressed like a Nazi.
:die:
:die:
It sucked. I'm horribly dissapointed that I wasted my time. Now, I'm going to listen to some Flash Gordon OTR to wipe the entire experience from my mind.Comment
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Pretty lame.Thats one character that that you should stick to the classic look withLooking for Remco Phantom. Mego mailer boxed figuresComment
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My point being that we live in a day and age where Lucus did in fact come under criticism for attempting to bring back the Stepin Fetchit and The Yellow Peril archetypes in the guise of aliens in The Phantom Menace. Folks recognized it and called him on it. A simple google search will show you this fact.
Hell even the South Park movie got it square on target given the audience reaction to a certain scene.
There is a reason why he toned it down in the subsequent films. I mean C-3PO was irritating and so were the Ewoks, but that didn't stop him from marketing the hell out of them in spin-off media.
Which pretty much precludes this suggestion...
The problem with playing it straight is that it is merely fueling xenophobia and racism. You are also working on the assumption that today's target audience is still primarily the homogenous white American society of the Flash Gorden era, and not the multi-ethnic, multi-national, vertically integrated, and more importantly, WIRED global community we live in today. That "Yellow Peril" you fear "taking your job", has in fact already immigrated here back in the 80's, made his fortune and raised his station in life through long hours and hard work, and now also has grown kids who are "marrying your daughter" and giving you mixed grandkids, and they are all as much a part of that democratized North American television viewing audience as you are!OR play it straight. We're currently in the grips of ANOTHER "Yellow Peril," conidering the fears of China taking our jobs, and sending us poisoned toothpaste. (Sorta like Japan was played the last time the 80's happened....)
Producers and networks just don't want to deal with that kind of negative publicity and criticism from the Asian American community. This is simply the age we live in. Those that cannot accept that can take comfort in their VHS copies of the Buster Crabbe films from the previous century.
This argument never works because you can say that making him evil for evil's sake is just like every other scifi bad guy we've seen in the last hundred or so years worth of film and television where scifi was generally relegated to the cultural gutters of low budget b-movies, children's serials and saturday morning television (not that subversive or artful things couldn't be accomplished in those arenas).I don't think there's anything wrong with having an evil guy who's just evil. It's been so long since anyone's done that it'd be a delightful change.
Giving him depth and redeeming qualities and such really makes him just like every other sci-fi bad guy we've seen in the last few years.
Many of us have a fondness for the 1980's Flash Gorden film, but remember that it was a commercial and critical bomb at the box office back in the day, especially relative to the huge production costs.
There is a reason why the source material has fallen out of favour. Because it no longer resonates with a contemporary audience.
The best Sci Fi is ALWAYS fueled by the times we are living in RIGHT NOW.
Battlestar Galactica is arguably the most politically edgy mainstream program on TV these days (the humour of the Daily Show notwithstanding) because it gives us the comfortable distancing cushion of space-ships and robots.Last edited by samurainoir; Aug 20, '07, 10:18 PM.Comment
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>I mean C-3PO was irritating and so were the Ewoks, but that didn't stop him from marketing the hell out of them in spin-off media.
True; but they weren't nearly as irritating as JarJar. 3P0 didn't get nearly as much air time as JarJar in that first movie. He's in damned near every scene! (And why would the Gungans put him in charge of ANYTHING!?! Didin't they kick him out for being a putz?) I didin't find Ewoks so bad in Jedi. They were a weird inclusion; but they were presented with a bit of bite instead of just being teddy bears. They fought, they died, and they were gonna eat the heroes when they first caught them.
>That "Yellow Peril" you fear "taking your job", has in fact already immigrated here back in the 80's,
That's not quite what I was getting at.... I was referring to the endless news stories about manufacturers in China producing substandard, hazardous materials that they then unleash on an unsuspecting American public. I could see a movie or tv producer playing off of that; sorta how every bad guy in the 80's was Russian.
>This argument never works because you can say that making him evil for evil's sake is just like every other scifi bad guy we've seen in the last hundred or so
For me; if you're gonna draw from a source you should draw from a source. Sure, the irredeemably evil bad guy has been done to death, but not LATELY EVERYTHING has been done to death; but it all sort of cycles around. And a truly evil baddie would be faithful to the "Flash Gordon" name. Adding depth and twists and stuff moves towards Rob's pseudo-fanfiction idea; you're using a name to draw an audience even though you're not really using anything from the original.
>There is a reason why the source material has fallen out of favour. Because it no longer resonates with a contemporary audience.
The best Sci Fi is ALWAYS fueled by the times we are living in RIGHT NOW.
True; but within that there's a lot of room to play. I think you could sell an irredeemably evil baddie to a modern audience on the grounds that so many real life "enemies" are portrayed as "classic-Ming-like." It's not an... er... alien idea to most people. It might seem jarring to a shi-fi fan who's up on the state of the art for sci-fi writing; but to a normal person it'd probably be pretty standard. People go see all them action films, and the bad guys are usually just BAD. And every soap opera has a bad character or two. And some of those soaps have been running for longer than I've been alive.
The trick is to write the show so that the character seems APPROPRIATE to the story, and the heroes are likable... and blow a lot of stuff up. Kids like explosions.
...and I can never use commercial success as a measure of a show. That'd mean "Fiends" was better than ANY sci-fi show, and Friends was horrible!
Don C.Comment
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Many young kids loved Jar Jar and he sold piles of merchandise and that was very lucrative for Lucas. Let's not get too far off the beaten path of what we are discussing. I understand you have personal opinions about what is and isn't annoying, but you cannot deny that there were charges of racism and Lucas seemed to bow to that pressure.
The links from my previous post weren't just fans on the internet *****ing and moaning, we're talking CNN and the BBC. You can see that kind of negative publicity might have caused Lucas to cave in to public pressure as both Jar Jar and Nute Gunray dissappear into the scenary in the next two movies and Jar Jar no longer appeared on ball caps, T-shirts and knapsacks as far as I can tell.
And you can see why a Producer making a Television series that is looking to attract as wide an audience as possible would not choose to go "The Yellow Peril" creative route. No one wants the kind of negative publicity that groups like the 80-20 Initiative can generate.
So you are suggesting that Flash can become an outer space consumer advocate against Ming's Intergalactic Sweat Shop Manufacturing Empire? Sounds even less Faithful to the "Flash Gorden" name.>That "Yellow Peril" you fear "taking your job", has in fact already immigrated here back in the 80's,
That's not quite what I was getting at.... I was referring to the endless news stories about manufacturers in China producing substandard, hazardous materials that they then unleash on an unsuspecting American public. I could see a movie or tv producer playing off of that; sorta how every bad guy in the 80's was Russian.
I don't think any classic TV/Film that is remade for a modern audience can be directly translated from the original. Even shows that have been on the air more or less continually for thirty years need to be shaken up and reinvented. We saw this with Doctor Who everytime they brought in a new actor. Even Star Trek had to be given an Extreme make-over from the original before it found it's success in the sequel shows. The new Star Trek crew revisiting recycled scripts taking place on the planet of the polygamous black savages and the planet of the blonde nymphos just didn't cut it in the eighties, it was laughable.>This argument never works because you can say that making him evil for evil's sake is just like every other scifi bad guy we've seen in the last hundred or so
For me; if you're gonna draw from a source you should draw from a source.
Yes, but in having this discussion, we are questioning the choices and motivations of the Producers of the latest Flash Gorden series. Those decisions are inevitably driven by trends that have yielded financial gains by drawing in as wide a viewing audience as the possibly can. Film and Television is a business after all, and when you ask "why did they choose to do this?", more often than not the answers are fairly obvious....and I can never use commercial success as a measure of a show. That'd mean "Fiends" was better than ANY sci-fi show, and Friends was horrible!
It is success that creates these trends. As you've noted, the last few years we have Morally Ambiguous Antagonists because of the success of shows like Smallville, Lost, and Battlestar Galactica. Even Heroes gave us a mentally unhinged Big Baddie as opposed to an out and out Evil for Evil's sake villian, and even then all the other antogonists pulling the strings behind the scene are of the Morally Ambiguous School of Villainy.
Not to say the Evil for Evil's sake Bad Guy is a thing of the past... Voldemort from Harry Potter is an old fashioned Villian, but note that we have the Morally Ambiguous Snape at his side! I'd also argue Star War's Palpatine is pretty much in the mold of Evil for Evil's sake as well, but here we have the Morally Ambiguous Anakin/Vader wandering around. You can have your cake and eat it too.
This being show business, all it takes is one mustache twirling EEEVIL villian in the latest hit show to bring back the likes of Classic Ming, Cruella Deville, General Zod, and Snidely Whiplash. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before you get your wish and the we are up to our armpits in Scenary Tearing, Mustache Twirling, Damsels to Railway Track Tying, Mwooo-Hoo-Hoo Bad Guys.Last edited by samurainoir; Aug 21, '07, 7:59 PM.Comment
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The point is moot to me. Max Von Sydow as Ming looked about as Asian to me as Sam Jones did. Max's Ming didn't look or act Asian. And Max's Ming was terrific.
I'm sick and tired of the PC influences in modern pop culture as well but that is not the problem with this shows' Ming or the show in general.
The problem is the slavish devotion to making Sci-fi look "believable" which adds up to dull production design, a boring look for the characters and flavorless, interchangable stories that supposedly deal in real world context in some way or another. Then there is the caculated fanboy appeal. One or two babes thrown in that looked like they fell out of Maxim to keep (in the opinion of the producers) the lovelorn Sci-fi geeks interested.
No freshness, no whimsy, no flights of fancy, no fantastic, no deal. The eye candy is not there, the fun is all sucked out.
Star Trek managed to have social comment and gravitas, while also being a blast. It occasionally or frequently (depending point your point of view) was absurd and it didn't always take itself seriously. The sexiness in Star Trek was usually inspired, not tacked on as a standard issue fanboy requirement.
Anyway, Ming not being Asian is not the problem. The whole climate of modern Sci-Fi TV (especially Sci0Fi channel stuff) is the problem.Comment
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>but you cannot deny that there were charges of racism and Lucas seemed to bow to that pressure.
True; but I'm always a little leary of that sort of thing. I've seen other shows, books and music accused of all sorts of badness that wasn't there. The Trade Federation thing I could see; but JarJar still baffles me. I don't know anyone who acts like that. He didn't strike me as racist since I couldn't tell who he was supposed to be racist against.
>The links from my previous post weren't just fans on the internet *****ing and moaning, we're talking CNN and the BBC.
Yeah; but I don't trust the news either. Far be it from CNN to jump ona controversey.
>You can see that kind of negative publicity might have caused Lucas to cave in to public pressure as both Jar Jar and Nute Gunray dissappear into the scenary in the next two movies and Jar Jar no longer appeared on ball caps, T-shirts and knapsacks as far as I can tell.
The catch here is; did he do this 'cos of public pressure, or 'cos they juste weren't all that popular. A lot of JarJar merchandaise was MADE... but did it actually SELL? And if you're catching flak for an unpopular character, it's pretty easy to do away with them and look like a hero.
>And you can see why a Producer making a Television series that is looking to attract as wide an audience as possible would not choose to go "The Yellow Peril" creative route. No one wants the kind of negative publicity that groups like the 80-20 Initiative can generate.
True; but it depends on who that producer thinks their audience is. If you're going for an educated or well read crowd; probably not. If you're going for a more average bunch.... it might be easier to take the risk of bad press and throw in a blatantly ethnic baddie of whatever ethnicity we're supposed to hate now. (There's a thin line between appealing to an audience, and pandering to them.)
>So you are suggesting that Flash can become an outer space consumer advocate against Ming's Intergalactic Sweat Shop Manufacturing Empire? Sounds even less Faithful to the "Flash Gorden" name.
HAW! Nah; but I'm suggesting that a contemporary audience might not object too vehemently if Fu-Manchu was the bad guy. Right now we're being told we don't like the Chinese. (Although I COULD see someone trying what you've suggested. I don't think anyone SHOULD... see my earlier comment about "pandering," but I could see someone doing it. *sigh*)
>I don't think any classic TV/Film that is remade for a modern audience can be directly translated from the original.
I agree; but I think there's a point when you've re-engineered the idea so much that you might as well have done something completely new. Nowadays it's usually a matter of slapping an established name onto the current standard story. Like the new Flash. It's "Sliders" with a recurring bad guy.
>Yes, but in having this discussion, we are questioning the choices and motivations of the Producers of the latest Flash Gorden series.
I can see that. I like to keep it separate from content though. It's useful for finding out why someone did something, but I hate when it gets used as a quantifier.
>Not to say the Evil for Evil's sake Bad Guy is a thing of the past... Voldemort from Harry Potter is an old fashioned Villian, but note that we have the Morally Ambiguous Snape at his side!
And people loved that! Too often I find creators throw away the old tricks 'cos they're not state of the art. But they still work; IF you prep for them ahead of time.
>I'm sure it's only a matter of time before you get your wish and the we are up to our armpits in Scenary Tearing, Mustache Twirling, Damsels to Railway Track Tying, Mwooo-Hoo-Hoo Bad Guys.
TRAGICLY true! But I don't see that as an inherently bad thing. When making an intersting, entertaining story it's not what you do so much as how you do it. Any element can be used in a good story. Unfortunately most of the time you get blatant copies, until someone stumbles on something a little different that works... then you get blatant copies of THAT....
>Max Von Sydow as Ming looked about as Asian to me as Sam Jones did. Max's Ming didn't look or act Asian. And Max's Ming was terrific.
And I agree! THIS is what I wish they'd done... instead of making him yet another Char Aznable clone....
>The problem is the slavish devotion to making Sci-fi look "believable" which adds up to dull production design, a boring look for the characters and flavorless, interchangable stories that supposedly deal in real world context in some way or another.
Ultimately I do think THIS is the problem; and not just with sci-fi. There comes to be a "right" way of doing a given type of story and if you don't conform to that the execs won't touch it, and the fans won't bother. (Hazard of an "educated" fan base; they know the formula too, and it's an easy checklist to apply and show off how smart you are...)
Don C.Comment
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"Did SciFi choose wisely this time around? “Flash” apparently got the greenlight over Moore’s “Galactica” prequel “Caprica,” which continues to molder on the channel’s development shelf."
You mean that they really chose this crap over a proven show.
If I was handling a Idon'T know a SciFi legend like Flash Gordon, Buck Rodgers or even the 6Mil Man I would try to stay close to source mat whenever I could. I know in some cases some elements have to change but this was to drastic (I know sometimes change is good but come on this is not one of those times) Is there a reason besides some producer wanting to be the one who said I changed Ming I made the new version of Flash Gordon. Is there a reason that every portrayal of ming looks the way he does....Because that is what works notice how most people have always drawn or portrayed him roughly similar untill now....Damn this show is making me wish George Lucas went out & got the Rights & make his own Flash Gordon can't be worse than this.Comment
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