Dr. Who Regeneration Question

[Steeler80]

Everything gets even more confusing when you toss in The Brain of Morbius debate.

There's been a long-running debate among Who fans as to the identity of the faces we see in the "mind contest" between Morbius and the Doctor. Many people point out that the faces occur when Morbius is beating the Doctor in the contest and, thus, all the faces shown belong to the Doctor. This would mean that Hartnell wasn't the first Doctor.

In fact, Holmes (the writer of the episode) and Hinchcliffe (the producer) have stated that this was their intention when the episode was made.

Many fans have chosen to discount this and attribute the extra faces to Morbius because this would put the Doctor over his regeneration limit all ready.

[Mikey]

For me, regardless of what the writer's original intent was, the official story is Hartnell was the first Doctor and by the time Morbius was filmed, there were four Doctors.

In reality, those strange faces were set crew members who were put in as hidden cameo's in the series.

[ctc]

>This would mean that Hartnell wasn't the first Doctor.

I find that one interesting. I don't think it's ever been conclusively said that Hartnel was or wasn't the first. At any rate; he's old enough to have had a whole separate life before the start of the series. Surprising that nobody's thought of doing a "Young Doctor" series.

>To have a future self come back and try to take over your former selves and fail wouldn't that knowledge of events motivate you to prevent the future self from becoming evil in the first place so the future evil self should not exist to come back and try to hijack your past lives?

...unless it was precisely that medling which CAUSED your future self to become evil. Time Travel is weird.

>The Doctor and The Master are DEFINETLY two different people.

So.... howzabout the theory that the Meddling Monk was actually an early incarnation of the Master?

Don C.

[drwhofan74]

Am I not so sure that the 12 regenration rule is any longer in effect. The Master was supposed to be at the end of his regenrations during the series of the late 70s/80s. That is why he ended up extending his life by posessing the body of Nyssa's father. He had to find new ways to survive. The movie with Paul McGann show the Master surviving as a glob of goo that posses Eric Roberts. But, he obviously regenerated at the end of Utopia without hesitation.

So, Either the 12 regeneration rule is out, or the Master's history has been altered so they can keep bringing him back.

[samurainoir]

Am I not so sure that the 12 regenration rule is any longer in effect. The Master was supposed to be at the end of his regenrations during the series of the late 70s/80s. That is why he ended up extending his life by posessing the body of Nyssa's father. He had to find new ways to survive. The movie with Paul McGann show the Master surviving as a glob of goo that posses Eric Roberts. But, he obviously regenerated at the end of Utopia without hesitation.

So, Either the 12 regeneration rule is out, or the Master's history has been altered so they can keep bringing him back.

Have they ever given a reason for 12 regenerations? Is it just the biological nature of the Time Lords, or because the "science" behind regeneration is such that their bodies/spirits can only sustain 12? Or is it an artificial cap that has been placed their by Time Lord governing bodies?

If it was an artificial cap and not a limitation of the Technology/Biology of a Gallifrey, then the Doctor is no longer bound by 12 regenerations and can live on forever as the last of the Time Lords.

The Master was obviously given a new Gallifreyan body and a new set of regenerations when he was brought back to fight in the Time War.

The way I look at it, the Master lived past his initial 12 regenerations by possessing other bodies. So when he possessed Nyssa's father, his body was Trakken and incapable of regeneration, ditto with Eric Roberts human body. I think someone recently floated the theary that the black goo was in fact some kind of alien creature that the Master possessed as well. Did the Master ever attempt to possess another Time Lord (like the Doctor?). If that was the case, that would leave him with however many regenerations that possessed Time Lord body had left.
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Was it ever established that Susan was in fact the Doctor's biological Granddaugher?

It was a well known fact that Susan was the Doctors real grandaughter --- but in the 80's, some really nutso Who fans with nothing better to do decided the Doctor should be celibate his entire life --- therefore making Susan just a young friend in their eyes.

Now that opens up an entire set of possibilities doesn't it? That would have made Susan a Time Lord as well with her own set of regenerations. That does mean at one point the Doctor had at least one son or daughter.

One really has to wonder what her fate was. Although given Doctor's assertions that he was the last of the Time Lords, the implication is that she either died previous to the Time Wars in unrevealed circumstances, or somehow was involved in the Time War and suffered the same fate as the rest of the Time Lords, or she is somehow hiding as well somewhere out there and is able to mask herself like The Master did.

The other thing this brings up is the possibility the The Doctor fled Gallifrey as an old man, and you have to wonder what his reasoning would be to bring his Grand-daughter in tow (and what happened to her parents). Unless he actually left Gallifrey as a younger man (after impregnating some poor Time Lady) and encountered his grand-daughter years later and decided to bring her along on his adventures. The other possibility in that scenario is that he ditched a wife and child on Gallifrey at some point to go off and have adventures!

[danadoll]

Have they ever given a reason for 12 regenerations? Is it just the biological nature of the Time Lords, or because the "science" behind regeneration is such that their bodies/spirits can only sustain 12? Or is it an artificial cap that has been placed their by Time Lord governing bodies?

If it was an artificial cap and not a limitation of the Technology/Biology of a Gallifrey, then the Doctor is no longer bound by 12 regenerations and can live on forever as the last of the Time Lords.

I'm guessing it's an artificial cap, since the Time Lords can grant more lives after the original twelve...But the Time Lords have rules and having an indefinite lifespan is a no-no (re: Rassilon/Five Doctors)...

The Master was obviously given a new Gallifreyan body and a new set of regenerations when he was brought back to fight in the Time War.

The way I look at it, the Master lived past his initial 12 regenerations by possessing other bodies. So when he possessed Nyssa's father, his body was Trakken and incapable of regeneration, ditto with Eric Roberts human body. I think someone recently floated the theary that the black goo was in fact some kind of alien creature that the Master possessed as well. Did the Master ever attempt to possess another Time Lord (like the Doctor?). If that was the case, that would leave him with however many regenerations that possessed Time Lord body had left.
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Now that opens up an entire set of possibilities doesn't it? That would have made Susan a Time Lord as well with her own set of regenerations. That does mean at one point the Doctor had at least one son or daughter.

One really has to wonder what her fate was. Although given Doctor's assertions that he was the last of the Time Lords, the implication is that she either died previous to the Time Wars in unrevealed circumstances, or somehow was involved in the Time War and suffered the same fate as the rest of the Time Lords, or she is somehow hiding as well somewhere out there and is able to mask herself like The Master did.

The other thing this brings up is the possibility the The Doctor fled Gallifrey as an old man, and you have to wonder what his reasoning would be to bring his Grand-daughter in tow (and what happened to her parents). Unless he actually left Gallifrey as a younger man (after impregnating some poor Time Lady) and encountered his grand-daughter years later and decided to bring her along on his adventures. The other possibility in that scenario is that he ditched a wife and child on Gallifrey at some point to go off and have adventures!

Susan isn't necessarilly a Time Lord/Lady, she could be just a normal Gallifreyan (Meaning the Doctor would still be the Last Time Lord/apart from the Master, of course)....And I doubt the Doctor would abandoned his family.

Dana
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Dana,

I recall hearing that explanation a long time ago. It seems to violate some basic rules of cause and effect in time travel theory tho.

To have a future self come back and try to take over your former selves and fail wouldn't that knowledge of events motivate you to prevent the future self from becoming evil in the first place so the future evil self should not exist to come back and try to hijack your past lives?

It's all very confusing and probably time travel would be more complicated than we can imagine.

The quote doesn't say he's a future regeneration, though...It says he's a distillation of the Doctor's evil (more like his evil self given corporeal form...It's an well-worn sci-fi/fantasy plot)...from somewhere between his twelfth and thirteenth incarnations (that only indicates when this distillation was given form/came into being).

Dana