One step closer to Bigfoot...

[MIB41]

I know you didn't. I'm just pointing out how many people believe in something much more fantastical than bigfoot with zero evidence to back it up, and it's completely accepted without question.
Bigfoot has thousands of eyewitness accounts, video and audio evidence, footprint castings verified by forensic experts, and hair samples genetically proven to belong to an unidentified species of primate that is not human, chimp or gorilla.
There is ZERO evidence of god, miracles, angels, heaven, hell, etc, etc, etc...yet bigfoot believers are the delusional ones?
I'm not trying to turn this into a religious debate, just making a point.

Oh I don't believe this is a religious debate. I think your reference to religion is just not exactly apples to apples in this discussion. I think tracking and killing Bin Laden may be a better comparison. Here's a guy who had an entire network of people, including a foreign government hide him from the world for years. Yet we STILL tracked him down and killed him under the best conditions for him to remain elusive. Now that was an intelligent human being with money and means to hide. Yet he failed. Now lets look at Big Foot. He's been seen in every state of the union AND virtually every country in the world. We've had scientific crews with their best technology search for this creature to find ANYTHING including a dingle berry dropping. Yet NO ONE has a definitive picture of this creature or any remains to support his existence. Now... roll that around for a few minutes and consider those two in comparison. One purposely hid with a vast web of people to assist him and was found. The other, by your definition, is a primate roaming the hillsides who has been SO elusive that no one from the average "Joe" on the street with a camera phone to our top scientists in the field can get ONE picture of him? Really?! Yet he's bumbling enough to walk into plain view for people who don't have cameras?

I guess what I would be curious to know is when do YOU shoot down claims of a Big Foot sighting? Surely you don't believe ALL to be legitimate...right? So in those "thousands" of accounts, where do you peel away the frauds from the enthusiastic to the believable? And what in your unscientific assessment says that what you personally saw was a Big Foot species? Maybe it was something else? Was he tagged? Did he tell you he was Big Foot? What kind of accent did he have? Did his fur have a Discovery Channel UPC tag stitched on it with a product description?

So yes. At this point I'm being sarcastic because your insistence comes from assumption you call "proof". You saw something you couldn't identify, so your imagination has filled in the blanks. People also see UFO's everyday. "Thousands" have seen those too. Do you think we're in the eleventh hour of an invasion? Maybe Big Foot is doing reconnaissance work for them right now. See? I can go in a more ludicrous direction with the same material you have and you can't 'disprove' that either. So I guess what I'm getting at is that if faith is all you have to defend your belief, then don't point to science to back it up. Just believe in it and be happy with that. The science of it will just never work in your favor. I think Big Foot is a fun myth. It would be cool and interesting to have a grand beast roaming amongst us. It has a very middle age flavor to it like werewolves. But that's the kid in me that wants to believe. The rationale side understands it's not possible.

[enyawd72]

It abolutely IS possible. There IS evidence. When you have experts telling you that at least SOME tracks are real...that they have dermal ridges that CANNOT be faked...how do you explain that away?
When they find DNA related to humans and known ape species but belonging to neither, how do you explain that away?
Are there frauds and hoaxsters out there? Of course. Are some people mistaken? Of course. But to say ALL fit into either one category or the other is not only improbable, it is statistically IMPOSSIBLE.

[torgospizza]

When you have experts telling you that at least SOME tracks are real...that they have dermal ridges that CANNOT be faked...how do you explain that away?

Those experts are wrong. Dermal ridges can and have been faked. There's an actual article from a peer reviewed scientific journal you can read here. How can these guys be considered experts--possibly used in trials--and not know how dermal ridges can be faked? They should use Google.

http://how2dostuff.blogspot.com/2005/11/how-to-make-fake-fingerprint.html

http://www.wikihow.com/Fake-Fingerprints

http://www.ehow.com/how_2122642_fake-fingerprints.html

http://www.informationweek.com/biometric-readers-fooled-with-fake-finge/175001741

And now with 3D scanners, what's to stop people from scanning their own footprint and tinkering with the print, then blowing it up to a larger scale? Or just carving the foot and adding dermal ridges with wood glue applied with a toothpick? It actually sounds like a fun and easy project.

[enyawd72]

Those experts are wrong. Dermal ridges can and have been faked. There's an actual article from a peer reviewed scientific journal you can read here. How can these guys be considered experts--possibly used in trials--and not know how dermal ridges can be faked? They should use Google.

http://how2dostuff.blogspot.com/2005/11/how-to-make-fake-fingerprint.html

http://www.wikihow.com/Fake-Fingerprints

http://www.ehow.com/how_2122642_fake-fingerprints.html

http://www.informationweek.com/biometric-readers-fooled-with-fake-finge/175001741

And now with 3D scanners, what's to stop people from scanning their own footprint and tinkering with the print, then blowing it up to a larger scale? Or just carving the foot and adding dermal ridges with wood glue applied with a toothpick? It actually sounds like a fun and easy project.

Actually, the experts are not wrong. I've already read this article before. You will note that the best that could be acheived is a patchwork print that is easily identifiable as a fake by an EXPERT. Also, the experts I'm referring to have fingerprinted every species of great ape. The dermal ridge patterns of apes and humans are very different, actually running in different directions. THAT is why these guys are used in trials, because unlike the author of that article, they actually KNOW what they're talking about.
I know there are fakes out there. But saying EVERY print is a fake is like saying every autograph out there is a fake. It just isn't possible.

[MIB41]

Here's one you'll enjoy. A survey taken in 2011 suggests more people believe in Santa than God... Of course more people believe in God than Big Foot. Can that many people for Santa and God be wrong? Your "proof" by numbers can take on some fun directions if that's what you lean on.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=how%20many%20people%20believe%20in%20santa%20claus&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CFYQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvoices.yahoo.com%2Fnew-survey-shows-more-people-believe-santa-than-10340427.html&ei=WNZrUYjNBObh0QH6g4GgAg&usg=AFQjCNHZH8V2WCnSo3DU_W6jz5ZcQbohWw

And let's not forget the thousands of examples of people who have followed cults or dictators who were then slaughtered. I think they were wrong. So example by numbers is just a sheep policy for people who need someone around them to offer reassurance for something they don't have confidence enough to believe by themselves. Lets step outside the perceived "crowd" and just deal with hard facts. No one has definitive proof, but some people want to insist they see it all the time. That's what defines an urban legend. It doesn't make him real. That's all you have, and likely all you'll EVER have. Technology and sheer population density has advanced to a point where these myths are easily disproved.

[enyawd72]

See MIB, here's the problem...the "survey" you just posted does not suggest what you say it does. Read it again. It is talking about Santa and God as abstract concepts, and how God is more difficult for people to visualize. It says if people were given a CHOICE and had to pick one or the other they would pick Santa because he is easier to identify with as a CONCEPT. What is god? An old guy with a beard? A cloud? George Burns? See the problem?

I'm not talking about Santa or god, or any other mythical creature. I don't believe in unicorns, the Easter bunny, leprechauns, etc.
In fact, I'm an atheist because I have a hard time believing in god or any religion. I do however, believe there actually is enough physical evidence to support the existence of an unknown species of animal in the remote forests of the U.S. and other regions of the world. There are 33 million acres of unexplored forest in California alone. If you think a large animal couldn't remain hidden there you're mistaken. People have gone missing there who WANTED to be found and never have been. I still point to the two best facts that support my case.

#1 Gorillas were not discovered until 1902. Skeptics like yourself laughed them off as a myth, despite the locals knowing about them for centuries. Kinda sounds like the American Indians and Bigfoot huh?
#2 Despite an enormous known population, only ONE set of chimpanzee remains have ever been found in the wild. There's your answer to why hasn't anybody ever found a dead Bigfoot.

Okay...I'm done.

[MIB41]

Okay...I'm done.

That was the part I was waiting for. I believe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. And I will let you know when my friend has his book ready to publish about the big foot phenomenon. He and I disagree too. But his book is about the people who have seen the mythical creature and not so much a book about the evidence. It's an interesting angle to take. I'll see where he's at. Maybe he would like to interview you for his book? That's always a possibility. If interested, let me know and I can pass that along to him.

[Hector]

Correction, anthropologist Paul Belloni du Chaillu, was the first Westerner to have confirmed the existence of the gorilla in the 1860's.

Africans of course have known of their existence for ages, but I guess they don't count, kinda like when Christopher Columbus discovered America, because Natives don't seem to count either, lol.

[Hector]

A grizzly bear would maul a bigfoot to death, just like leopards have been known to kill adult gorillas.

[enyawd72]

Correction, anthropologist Paul Belloni du Chaillu, was the first Westerner to have confirmed the existence of the gorilla in the 1860's.

Africans of course have known of their existence for ages, but I guess they don't count, kinda like when Christopher Columbus discovered America, because Natives don't seem to count either, lol.

Apologies Hector,

I was specifically referring to the mountain gorilla...and of course the African natives count. As I said, they had known of their existence for centuries, but modern science didn't believe them.

[Hector]

I know you know your stuff, I'm just being a gnat, lol.

[Brazoo]

Apologies Hector,

I was specifically referring to the mountain gorilla...and of course the African natives count. As I said, they had known of their existence for centuries, but modern science didn't believe them.

Confirming something scientifically is different than believing in something. You're of course right, people can believe in things without proof, it doesn't make what they believe in TRUE. That's the whole reason science is such an important tool. We really shouldn't discuss religion on here, as we were specifically asked not to, but faith based beliefs - by definition - are beliefs people accept on faith alone - without proof. It's accepted and acknowledged in the very premiss of those beliefs.

The current data we have makes Bigfoot's existence highly unlikely. If in the 1850s scientists thought it was just as unlikely for Mountain Gorillas to exist then of course they were wrong. Though, I'd like to see some evidence that the consensus of science at that time believed it was unlikely to find a new species of apes in an area that is both the most densely populated by species on land, AND one of the least explored areas on land.

[Brazoo]

Sorry for the bad spelling. I can't get the hang of typing on a tablet.

[Mikey]

A grizzly bear would maul a bigfoot to death, just like leopards have been known to kill adult gorillas.

Unless it was Andre the Giant AS bigfoot ... then his arm would just fall off

[torgospizza]

Unless it was Andre the Giant AS bigfoot ... then his arm would just fall off

I was watching Bigfoot and Wildboy the other day, and what I found odd was that he made bionic noises when he ran or jumped, just like in SMDM.