Proof the Hall of Fame votes are rigged

[Random Axe]

I think this answers a lot of questions this afternoon...

[Sideshow Spock]

[jwyblejr]

Like it matters. Nobody got in anyways.

[megoscott]

There is no debate more boring to me than "Who should be in the Hall of Fame?"

You know who should be n the Hall of Fame? Famous people should be in the Hall of Fame.

It's a baseball museum, not Valhalla. If I go to a museum about baseball and Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire aren't in it in all their drug induced glory, it's like going to a Civil War Museum and not finding US Grant mentioned because he was a drunk.

[spacecaps]

I wish baseball would just release the names on the Mitchell report. Those 100 names become ineligible for the Hall. Those already in the Hall get removed. Everyone else, is innocent until proven guilty. That alone would satisfy the general public more than enough and kill off about 95% of the roids headache that refuses to go away. Baseball should also put that in their 'Roids clause that along with any suspension for taking PED's, a player voids any eligibility to appear on a ballot to the Hall of Fame. A guy like A-Rod cares about that kind of thing. I bet he'd have thought twice about doing them if he knew his immortality was on the line. A guy like David Ortiz wouldn't even get a discussion about being HOF worthy and going forward, not allowing any Roid guy access to the Hall would put many "did he or didn't he" debates to rest.

But first they need to change the voting process. Take away the votes from the newspaper men and give them to the broadcasters that have covered a team for a certain amount of years. Each team has two representative votes. These guys see every inning of every game. Half of them are ex-players, most of them are expert analysts. They know what they're looking at and are probably the best judge of character and talent since they travel with their teams and see them play day after day.

It's a disgrace no one got in. Clemens proved in a court of law he was innocent of the charges against him and Piazza had whispers about PED but no proof ever surfaced and no one went so far as to even accuse him of doing them and yet they're both kept out on suspicion and hearsay. If this were a normal ballot, they may have had trouble getting in because some voters don't believe the candidate doesn't deserve to be a "First Ballot Hall of Famer" or god forbid someone gets elected unanimously because clearly no one is worthy of that. Seriously, who didn't vote for Cal Ripken JR the first time. Someone didn't because no player has ever gotten 100% of the votes. When Jeter and Rivera come around to be elected, neither of them will get 100% either even though thier accomplishments should warrant a first ballot unanimous decision. MLB really needs to decide if the Hall of Fame is a museum or a church because they really can't have it both ways.

Also Edgar Martinez not getting in again got over looked. The only reason he's not in is because the Hall refuses to acknowledge his position as a legitimate profession in Baseball even though the DH has been around for 40+ years now and Martinez was the best ever at that spot. He should be in without question but apparently the designated hitter is worthy of acknowledgment by the voters yet.

[spacecaps]

There is no debate more boring to me than "Who should be in the Hall of Fame?"

You know who should be n the Hall of Fame? Famous people should be in the Hall of Fame.

It's a baseball museum, not Valhalla. If I go to a museum about baseball and Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire aren't in it in all their drug induced glory, it's like going to a Civil War Museum and not finding US Grant mentioned because he was a drunk.

That's the old Shoeless Joe Jackson argument. The guy has been dead for 80 years. He has no surviving relatives and yet baseball refuses to give him a plaque because of his connection and involvement with the Black Sox scandal. Putting aside that he and most of his teammates were kind of screwed on the deal they made with MLB after the scandal, all the evidence was lost, and that they were put into that spot by Comisky in the first place, baseball won't give Shoeless Joe a plaque honoring his accomplishments (still the 3rd highest batting average all-time) but they have a very nice display of Jackson's home-made tobacco spit stained bat, Black Betsy" right along side his um, shoes? and a very nice write up about Joe Jackson, who he was and what his accomplishments were. So he's not in the hall of fame and yet he's in the hall of fame.

[megomania]

Also Edgar Martinez not getting in again got over looked. The only reason he's not in is because the Hall refuses to acknowledge his position as a legitimate profession in Baseball even though the DH has been around for 40+ years now and Martinez was the best ever at that spot. He should be in without question but apparently the designated hitter is worthy of acknowledgment by the voters yet.

I don't think it got overlooked...he just doesn't have the stats to get in. I'm a lifelong Mariners fan and there just really isn't any way you can say "he should be in without question." The Mariners wasted his first 3 years by keeping him in Calgary behind 3B Jim Presley (he got the standard Sept call-up and got in some games). While Edgar was hitting .340 in Triple-A, Presley was on the downside of his career but a fan favorite. When Edgar did come up he hurt his knee and was forced to switch to DH because of the Kingdome astroturf. He also had three years - '93, '94, '97 - where he played fewer than 100 games due to injury and one of those years he only appeared in 42 games.

He has less than 3,000 hits (2,247) and only 309 HRs - those are two primary milestones for voters. He's not getting in based on those two numbers. I love 'Gar, and he arguably was the best DH of all-time but he just doesn't have the numbers. He might increase his overall % each year but he won't make it.

-Chris

[enyawd72]

There is no debate more boring to me than "Who should be in the Hall of Fame?"

You know who should be n the Hall of Fame? Famous people should be in the Hall of Fame.

It's a baseball museum, not Valhalla. If I go to a museum about baseball and Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire aren't in it in all their drug induced glory, it's like going to a Civil War Museum and not finding US Grant mentioned because he was a drunk.

I strongly disagree. Grant being a drunk didn't help him win the war. Those you mentioned don't deserve to be included because their "accomplishments" were achieved by CHEATING, plain and simple. You don't reward, honor, or acknowledge cheaters. If you do, what kind of message does that send? It's okay to cheat as long as you get ahead of everybody else?
No way man.

[spacecaps]

I don't think it got overlooked...he just doesn't have the stats to get in. I'm a lifelong Mariners fan and there just really isn't any way you can say "he should be in without question." The Mariners wasted his first 3 years by keeping him in Calgary behind 3B Jim Presley (he got the standard Sept call-up and got in some games). While Edgar was hitting .340 in Triple-A, Presley was on the downside of his career but a fan favorite. When Edgar did come up he hurt his knee and was forced to switch to DH because of the Kingdome astroturf. He also had three years - '93, '94, '97 - where he played fewer than 100 games due to injury and one of those years he only appeared in 42 games.


He has less than 3,000 hits (2,247) and only 309 HRs - those are two primary milestones for voters. He's not getting in based on those two numbers. I love 'Gar, and he arguably was the best DH of all-time but he just doesn't have the numbers. He might increase his overall % each year but he won't make it.

-Chris

My point on Martinez is that if you look at him at his position and only compare his numbers to other DH's in 40 years, he was the best to play that spot. A DH is usually an aging hitter who can no longer play a position or a younger guy hobbled by too many injuries to take the field but can still hit. Without the DH, guys like Martinez and Ortiz would never have even had a career so a DH should be looked under a diferent scope than a position player because what they do and who they are are two different things. The same holds up for relief pitchers who also get the shaft most of the time when it comes to the hall. You can't compare a relief pitcher to a starter because they don't do the same things. If you are a middle reliever, you have no shot at the hall either even though those guys are sometimes just as or more important than the guy pitching the 9th. Take the Yankees in the 90's. Rivera never gets a chance to save all those games and become an all-time great if Nelson and Stanton don't come in every night and pitch lights out in the 7th and 8th. Now I'm not saying either of those guys belongs in the hall but lets say a guy like David Robertson pitches the 8th the way he's pitched the last two years for the next 10 years. If he can keep up his game at that level and become the most dominant player at his position to ever play, the guy should get serious consideration even though his wins, strikeouts, and save numbers won't be anywhere near the "leauge standard" for induction into the Hall. So for Martinez, who played DH his whole career, he should be compared to others that played his position the same way a Second Baseman isn't held to the standards of a Center Fielder or a reliver is compared to a starter.

[Allie Fox]

I don't mean to nitpick your post spacecaps. . .

[QUOTE=spacecaps;991606]I wish baseball would just release the names on the Mitchell report. [quote]
You can see the full report here. I think you are referring to the anonymous tests that were conducted in 2003 where 104 players tested positive for "something." That test was used to determine the extent of PED use among active players. The names on the list are supposed to be sealed and only handful of people have actually seen it. Those who have been positively identified so far are: Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Alex Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Jason Grimsley, Larry Bigbie and David Segui.

Those 100 names become ineligible for the Hall. Those already in the Hall get removed. Everyone else, is innocent until proven guilty. That alone would satisfy the general public more than enough and kill off about 95% of the roids headache that refuses to go away. Baseball should also put that in their 'Roids clause that along with any suspension for taking PED's, a player voids any eligibility to appear on a ballot to the Hall of Fame. A guy like A-Rod cares about that kind of thing. I bet he'd have thought twice about doing them if he knew his immortality was on the line. A guy like David Ortiz wouldn't even get a discussion about being HOF worthy and going forward, not allowing any Roid guy access to the Hall would put many "did he or didn't he" debates to rest.

Since the 2003 test only three players have been inducted who might have taken it; Rickey Henderson, Robbie Alomar and Barry Larkin. Henderson retired in '03 and the other two in '04. It's doubtful that any of the three were even tested. That is not to say that others weren't using throughout the late 80s and 90s. Fergie Jenkins said yesterday that there is a rumor among the Hall of Famers that they already have a PED user in the fold. However without the proof of a positive test how can you say someone should be removed?
MLB and the Baseball Hall of Fame are seperate entities. MLB can not say who gets inducted and who should be removed. That is up to the Museum Board. However, the Hall of Fame's Rules for Eligibility state that any player on MLBs permanently ineligible list is not qualified to be on a ballot for induction. This is the only stop-gap that might discourage a Hall worthy player from using but that player must have been caught twice before (resulting in 50 and 100 game suspensions each) and then it is left to the discretion of the Commissioner as to the fate of the player after the third time. We fans think it would result in a permanent ban from the game but it remains to be seen. Only Man-Ram and Guillermo Mota have tested positive twice for PEDs and I think both are done.

But first they need to change the voting process. Take away the votes from the newspaper men and give them to the broadcasters that have covered a team for a certain amount of years. Each team has two representative votes. These guys see every inning of every game. Half of them are ex-players, most of them are expert analysts. They know what they're looking at and are probably the best judge of character and talent since they travel with their teams and see them play day after day.

This I mostly agree with. I think there are too many voters out there. There needs to be a panel of experts that can better assess Hall of Fame worthiness. It should include some broadcasters, scouts, managers, Hall of Famers, and maybe even a SABR guy or two.

It's a disgrace no one got in. Clemens proved in a court of law he was innocent of the charges against him and Piazza had whispers about PED but no proof ever surfaced and no one went so far as to even accuse him of doing them and yet they're both kept out on suspicion and hearsay.

It is a disgrace the baseball writers didn't elect anyone but let's not forget Jacob Ruppert, Hank O'Day and Deacon White. Veteran's selections yes but Hall of Famers nevertheless.
Clemens didn't prove he was innocent. The prosecution failed to prove he lied. He is "Not Guilty" of Perjury. He is not absolved of the possibility of using PEDs where evidence presented was pretty strong even if from a slimebag like McNamee. Your Piazza statement on the other hand is pretty much dead on. I believe it was Murray Chass who saw a pimple on his back and deduced he was a user.

If this were a normal ballot, they may have had trouble getting in because some voters don't believe the candidate doesn't deserve to be a "First Ballot Hall of Famer" or god forbid someone gets elected unanimously because clearly no one is worthy of that. Seriously, who didn't vote for Cal Ripken JR the first time. Someone didn't because no player has ever gotten 100% of the votes. When Jeter and Rivera come around to be elected, neither of them will get 100% either even though thier accomplishments should warrant a first ballot unanimous decision. MLB really needs to decide if the Hall of Fame is a museum or a church because they really can't have it both ways.

This is one of the biggest problems I see with the voting for the Hall. The fact that Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Rickey Henderson, Frank Robinson and a few others were not unanimous selections shows that the voters have some sort of delusion about what their place in baseball history is.

Also Edgar Martinez not getting in again got over looked. The only reason he's not in is because the Hall refuses to acknowledge his position as a legitimate profession in Baseball even though the DH has been around for 40+ years now and Martinez was the best ever at that spot. He should be in without question but apparently the designated hitter is worthy of acknowledgment by the voters yet.

He is to DH what Lee Smith is to closers.

[EMCE Hammer]

I believe if the numbers merit votes, they should be in. If the numbers are suspect, make sure there's a big old blurb on the plaque about the 'roids era. Or make a 'roids wing, whatever. It happened, it's a baseball museum, it should be in there for better or worse.

Don't worry, Buster Olney and Pedro Gomez could still share all their wisdom on whether it was the right or wrong thing to do.

[Allie Fox]

I'm not sure what makes the numbers suspect though. Whether or not Barry Bonds would or could have hit 762 homeruns is irrelevant to me now. He hit them. Every one of his homeruns counted in the games that he played so he is the Home Run King.

I think it is up to us and history to decide for ourselves if he hit those homeruns while playing fairly. That to me is what is suspect.

The steroid era is part of history. I feel it would be remiss to not include it as part of the Hall of Fame. The good the bad and the ugly.

[jwyblejr]

Pete Rose should be on the ballot.

[ScottA]

I keep pulling for the Braves' Dale Murphy to get in.

[johnmiic]

In addition to the "steroid abuse" angle my father has told me time and time again that a footnote regarding baseball equipment should be introduced. Yes Bonds, Sosa and McGwire hit an extraordinary number of home-runs but the baseballs & bats they used differ greatly from the ones that were used when say Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson played. That fact should be pointed out because it may have had some bearing on their performance too.