Obligatory Avenger's Thread

[Tothiro]

I understand where people are coming from with the moral regression, but I think the adulation Stark received as Iron Man replaced his previous fame as the big bad munitions magnate.

It was just too quick a turnaround for me - and a lot of that IM1 character redemption was based on his inner realization that whatever his persona on the outside and personal misbehavior, his actions had real consequences. The lesson he was learning was that he was manufacturing people's death. That underlies the whole angry suiting up and flying out to meet the militia bit.
But then by IM2, he's abdicated all responsibility completely and his attitude is "yeah, whatevs."
I get that that's a more realistic representation of character flaw - but ... you know.

That's why I was really curious about the Stark Sr and Captain America myth stories background. I know unpacking daddy issues was not this film - but like what is Stark's major hang up there?

[Earth 2 Chris]

I like Iron Man 2 a lot. I understand where people are coming from with the moral regression, but I think the adulation Stark received as Iron Man replaced his previous fame as the big bad munitions magnate. He was convinced he was the good guy free and clear now, and got cocky. I thought it was actually pretty refreshing to see a hero fall back into old habits and need to pull himself up yet again. It's often what happens to us in real life.

I agree Spider-Man 2's subway scene is one of the heights of that series. I really liked the movies overall, with 2 being my favorite. Still really fond of that one. The third movie was just ill-conceived all the way around. It's hard to watch for me. My kid loves it!!!

Chris

[Tothiro]

Ok... why not? :{ <-- (smiley with a mustache)

Best. Post. Credit. Scene. Ever.

Beyond that, I also really enjoyed it.

Iron Man 1 I really liked, IM2 left me cold (because of the character's moral regression, which retreaded IM1 territory and not as well, the recasting really bothered me, the villian was a guy in a room for two thirds of the movie... etc.) But Downey can save even some of the worst films just by being so amazingly awesome.

Thor was... fun to see on the screen. Not a great film, but I enjoyed a lot of parts of it. Tired of Portman though - could think of a dozen actresses better for that role.

Saw both Hulks. Second better than first, of course, but I think that was a tonal problem with Lee's version, and I really would have been interested in hearing Norton's version of the second films other scenes and edits...

Captain America was probably one of my favorites of the solo films. I wish there'd been actual Nazis at least somewhere in Europe, but hey. Cap was ridiculously jingoistic, but - Hello - It's Captain America. Kind of his whole point. I felt like that was a very comic book tone, like Rocketeer was in the day. The effects really sold the story - because that character building in the start was well deserved. I felt the song and dance center of the film was too long, and that Cap really needed some adventuresome plot advancement before it was just a big finale scene. I still really liked it.

So - Avengers was going to be a beast of story juggling, and still I think the characters were serviced well. Cap's reevaluation of his worldview is a really interesting way to modernize him in a hurry (I mean last week it was the Holocaust for him). I would have liked to have seen more about whether his love interest was Tony Stark's momma. I have always loved the Agent Phil character. By and large this bit delivered everything I could have expected.
I actually liked Loki a lot more, and felt his comic character coming through in this round than in the Thor movie - kind of hated his character in that one... Too inexperienced, whiny. The Hulk problem doesn't bother me as much because the Banner/Hulk dynamic has always historically been less about the actual havoc created than it has been Banner's reluctance and hatred in giving up control. Hulk has never (except in that horrible ultimates thing) willfully destroyed innocents - he is just kind of big and stupid smash machine. Banner can't control what Hulk does, and that whole Id/Superego thing is reason enough for me that he'd not want to change... Then Banner recognizes that the events demand Hulk, and he gives over. I think the logic is also that if Hulk is roused in a fight or flee response, then yes of course he's going to rampage through the side of the helicarrier - and that if he's called to action so to speak by Banner in a smooth transition, he'll be more Avengers Hulk than Solo Book Hulk.

Joss taking major credit for the box office though seems a little like giving someone a bulldozer to push a quadriplegic off a cliff and having them claim they're a world class super ninja assassin afterwards. I mean - how badly would you have to mess this one up to affect its box office? Even the Hulks did healthy numbers, and you had three other runaway amazing properties going into this.
I really liked it - it was fun. I have the old comics and some reprints, and they're fun too. If I had a two hour movie about Hydra agents creating a Captain America impersonator who was mean to babies in an attempt to discredit him in the public eye - I would walk out of the theater (and that's an Avengers plot - I'm sure someone can quote me the issue).
I don't go to movies for a book reading experience, much the same way I don't listen to music for a filling meal experience.
I understand the passion though - I was actually disheartened and disappointed by the Hellboy movie franchise.
Geez I ramble.

If you haven't seen Avengers yet shame on you.


OH and Spiderman!!!!
#2 actually sold me in the elevated train scene - the community pulling together to support their hero figure and their recognition of his age really was a great story point.
There can be no excuse for #3

[Earth 2 Chris]

^Amen.

Chris

[MIB41]

I think anytime you put comics to film, it's inevitable there will be something lost in translation. You have to sell the concept in reality for two hours rather than ponder story plots from issue to issue. It's apples and oranges in my book. If you can get anywhere close to the feel of a comic, I think you've done a pretty good job. But if there is truly a sanctity to the world of heroes, I would have to say comics is where it is violated the most today. DC has all but puked on every code of good taste with their heroes and Marvel is often just as unrecognizable when you compare them to comics back in the 70's where writers took pride in story continuity. And if you want to talk about manipulation... Let's see... Alternate covers, director's cut issues. Heroes supposedly dying and coming back in a predictable story arc. The comics these days are loaded with shameful ploys to milk your pocket. So if your looking for any kind of purity in the legacy of these heroes, I think the movies are closer these days than the comics.

[spacecaps]

When it comes to movies, I don't think there's anyone harder to please than me. Even when I enjoy a film, I can still find ways to pick it apart. The Hulk thing I mentioned before still bothers me and if any of you read what I wrote on Cabin In The Woods you know what I mean. I guess I can kind of see what Funkyterrace is saying because I find the Toby Mcguire Spiderman series to be unwatchable. It just didn't feel like Spiderman to me. Kirsten Dunce was terrible casting and I still don't know what they were thinking with the Green Goblin. By the time the 3rd movie came around, it's like they just gave up. However, Marvel has done an amazing job of setting this movie up and aside from the Hulk movie(s) there really wasn't a bad Avengers member movie. Captain America, Thor, and both Iron Mans did a great job creating such anticipation for The Avengers. I don't think such a build-up of that caliber has ever been attempted before. I mean when you consider they couldn't get an actor to come back as Batman for more than two films before Christian Bale, it's amazing they could get such a big time cast and lock them up for several sequels. I'd also watch any of the Super Hero movies that came out in the last 10 years over all that stuff that came out in the 70's. 1970's Spiderman, Captain America, Wonder Woman, even The Hulk seem silly compared to whats being made today. The only excpetion the that for me is the 60's Batman. That's one of the greatest TV shows ever and we'll never see the likes of that brand of television again.

[emeraldknight47]

I think we're witnessing the new "comic book" evolving right before our eyes.

Amen to that, brother....!

[megojim]

I think we're witnessing the new "comic book" evolving right before our eyes.

[emeraldknight47]

before this turns into a who's the more evolved comic book nerd argument, let's relax and realize we're all entitled to our opinions. It's all good.

P.S. I mean "nerd" in the most non-offensive, positive way.

Ditto that, bossman! If you can dig THE AVENGERS on the big screen, that's great for you. If you don't, that's okay, too. No judgments being called here!

And just for the record, I think "offensive" might be the word of the week here on the boards!!! ::laffs:: Just check out the "People of India" thread and you'll see what I mean!!!

[Gorn Captain]

I for one am grateful that we're finally getting some quality movies about comic book characters. I'm one of those veterans who had to make do with a seeing a guy in striped PJs pretending to be Captain America. Talk about bargain basement comic book movies...
The new Avengers movie is not perfect, but it's a great ride, it's respectful, it's well-made, it's like....a great comic book...

Now if they just give Hawkeye some decent threads...

[boss]

before this turns into a who's the more evolved comic book nerd argument, let's relax and realize we're all entitled to our opinions. It's all good.

P.S. I mean "nerd" in the most non-offensive, positive way.

[Funkyterrance]

Hey, I'm just voicing my opinion, I don't have a problem with anyone liking the new slew of movies about my their comic book characters, I just get a bad taste in my mouth every time I view one, like I am being manipulated or something. I never felt or feel that way reading old comics, some of the newer ones maybe...
I somewhat resent being called cynical because in general I'm not. I just have a better understanding of what's going on that I used to. If a kid watches a movie and loves it, I'm not going to dump on it but I feel somewhat entitled to being critical on here. I also am not trying to rob anyone of their joy of seeing the characters in a new dimension on-screen, tbh I am envious you all can enjoy it for that aspect. I however, cannot turn off my "being raped" switch.
And I have to say this, if the makers of this movie thought they could pawn off a movie with someone cheaper without all the comic-bookey knowledge they would have to save money. The best way to **** off comic book readers is to be inconsistent with a comic so it affects bottom line to be sure. Also, hes getting paid dearly for his work. I am just fed up with Hollywood in general, I can still appreciate genuine creativity though, I'm not completely callused.

[YoungOnce]

Yeah... I loved the comic books growing up too, but my inner-geek child loves being able to see these characters up on the big screen, larger than life.

Are they trying to sell me a movie? Sure... just like they were trying to sell me a comicbook back in the day. Sometimes you have to just let go and regress back to your un-cynical kid-state.

Isn't that kind of what we are doing here with Megos?

[emeraldknight47]

If in "explosive" you mean like diarrhea, sure. I am just a little tired of these Hollywood renditions of classic comic book heroes aimed at squeezing every last drop out of them, more often than not spoiling them, all for the sake of the almighty dollar. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, its just my personal reaction. I'd rather read an old comic book.

I'm not quite sure how you're perceiving THE AVENGERS as "squeezing every last drop out of them, more often than not spoiling them, all for the sake of the almighty dollar." I mean, from the very get go, IRON MAN was basically a set up FOR THE AVENGERS, so for them all to be in the movie is only a logical extension of the characters' individual movie arcs. Plus, you've got a certified comics geek in Joss Whedon steering the Helicarrier, so to speak. The way I look at it, it's a win-win situation....

[Funkyterrance]

Ditto here. I don't see anything "exploitative" about THE AVENGERS at all. "Explosive", yes, but exploitative, no.....!

If in "explosive" you mean like diarrhea, sure. I am just a little tired of these Hollywood renditions of classic comic book heroes aimed at squeezing every last drop out of them, more often than not spoiling them, all for the sake of the almighty dollar. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, its just my personal reaction. I'd rather read an old comic book.