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  • samurainoir
    Eloquent Member
    • Dec 26, 2006
    • 18758

    #61
    Originally posted by MegoScott
    I dunno, I'm kind of a hack myself. I have to admit that 15 years in digital art has killed my traditional chops. Plus doing background painting and color design is kind of a weird specialty. I'm constantly painting other people's pencil drawings. All that time I spent learning to draw...

    But still I'm good at what I do and it's fun and satisfying to be part of a creative team.
    But my understanding is, that just like the finished interior colour work in monthly comics, no one paints colour traditionally anymore unless you have a grant from the National Film Board of Canada, and even then they think you are nuts. (all the animators I know up here are all in the 3-d game).

    Unless you're name is Alex Ross or similar, and even then I don't think there is anyone currently in comics who does the labour intensive task of traditionally painting 22 pages of mainstream comics a month.

    Getting work In the monthly grind these days means colouring digitally if you are a colour artist. Otherwise you don't get the work, you don't get paid. You don't get to call yourself a pro.

    Pro gets paid
    Amateur doesn't
    By definition.
    Tools put money in your pocket or they don't.

    Commercial artist is professionally paid to deliver a work that is generally consumed as reproduction. The fact that a market has sprung up on original comics art is gravy... For that particular industry. Try asking for you art back in advertising, commercial design or storyboarding after you've delivered it to your client... And better yet, try and Turn around and sell it on ebay and see what your client thinks given that they paid you for that art already. (again though, digital has changed the rules)

    Anyone who's ever seen Greg Horn at a convention sees how many prints he sells at twenty bucks a pop. He says it's like printing your own money. On top of that, have you seen how much of his images grace product? The royalties on that far outshines whatever he would have made on original art... and there are plenty of examples of his traditional art out there, but his career did not take off until digital. No amount of railing against digital erases the fact that he has a portfolio of clients that would make most ad agencies wet themselves.

    Given that Blue Meanie tastes run towards the vintage art and period. I would hazard a guess and say that those pieces he's most interested (outside of convention sketches) have most likely left the hands of the artists long ago, and it's the art dealers that are the ones making the real cheddar off of it. It's an all too common story, which is why many older artist are finding a market in making recreations of work they are most associated with.

    Sad to say, but money talks and is the only measure between whether you deserve to call yourself pro and am, not tools.

    I've run into too many ridiculously talented artists who just couldn't adapt... Including one chap I met recently that rattled off a list of jobs and clients that certainly impressed me to no end, being a huge fanboy of old school illustration. I just about wept when I heard that he's driving a bus... And no longer a professional artist. He even laughed his *** off at me when I asked him about original art.
    Last edited by samurainoir; Apr 25, '12, 6:02 PM.
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    • megoscott
      Founding Partner
      • Nov 17, 2006
      • 8710

      #62
      I took a stab at coloring comics. Even with a computer it's a STAGGERING amount of work. It may not be to everyone's taste, but it's pretty impressive what those guys can pull off under ridiculous deadlines.

      Actually, the computer has made that work way more intense than it ever was because of what you can do. I'm sure the publishers want all the bells and whistles, all the FX they can get out of the artist.
      This profile is no longer active.

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      • kingdom warrior
        OH JES!!
        • Jul 21, 2005
        • 12478

        #63
        Originally posted by MegoScott
        But I don't understand how is it a cheat? Sitting down to learn oil painting techniques and sitting down to learn Fractal Painter are different sides of the same coin. It's just learning to manipulate a medium. The fundamentals of drawing don't change from paper to digital tablet, the fundamentals of color aren't limited to tubes of acrylic paint.
        Again for the Hack it's a Cheat, as an Illustrator I have come across tons of artist who take a pic, scan it then change it to a line drawing and then color it and say I'm an artist......really???? How so is that?? I have a good friend who's an Art Director.....one of the things he does to guys who ports are weak is he pulls out a piece of paper and tells them to draw something gives them about 20 minutes to come up with something.

        He wants to evaluate their drawing skills with a pencil and paper and coming up with Ideas on the fly.......a Pro who knows how to work quickly can do something an amateur cannot plain and simple. it's nice that you have 15 nice art pieces....now how long did it take you to do them? and show me the process of how you came up with it.....I want to know you can come up with something in a few days not 6months. He told me you'd be surprised how many guys can't draw to save their lives and they're coming in for positions working on big time accounts, He said I'm not going to hand a Kid who can barely draw an account that's due in the morning if his computer goes down, I have to be assured that he can deliver hardcopy if need be, how's he gonna do that if he has no art skills to begin with?

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        • Brazoo
          Permanent Member
          • Feb 14, 2009
          • 4767

          #64
          Methinks 200 years ago this would be an argument about artists who buy commercially available brushes and paints, and artists who make them themselves.

          I think it's true that some people NEED to stand on one leg and cross their arms over their head and really struggle to create something they consider worthy - and I think sometimes people are genuinely more impressed by artists who take the long road.

          When I thought Chris Ware did all his ornate decorations and crazy typography using a computer I liked it, but I was floored when I found out he did it all using non-digital techniques.

          For some reason, that made a difference to me. So, while I'm basically on-side with MegoScott - despite my logic - I think I also can agree with kingdom warrior's instincts here to some degree.

          I also agree with MegoScott that creating digital art can be just as complex and difficult as creating art in any other medium.

          Also, for the record - I think you both make great art.

          Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to designing a crappy website in Illustrator...

          Comment

          • kingdom warrior
            OH JES!!
            • Jul 21, 2005
            • 12478

            #65
            Originally posted by Brazoo
            Methinks 200 years ago this would be an argument about artists who buy commercially available brushes and paints, and artists who make them themselves.

            I think it's true that some people NEED to stand on one leg and cross their arms over their head and really struggle to create something they consider worthy - and I think sometimes people are genuinely more impressed by artists who take the long road.

            When I thought Chris Ware did all his ornate decorations and crazy typography using a computer I liked it, but I was floored when I found out he did it all using non-digital techniques.

            For some reason, that made a difference to me. So, while I'm basically on-side with MegoScott - despite my logic - I think I also can agree with kingdom warrior's instincts here to some degree.

            I also agree with MegoScott that creating digital art can be just as complex and difficult as creating art in any other medium.

            Also, for the record - I think you both make great art.

            Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to designing a crappy website in Illustrator...
            Scott sees it from the Pro view which I totally agree with. it's not easy to work with those tools BUT the fact that he WAS a traditional artist in the first place gives him the advantage that a young person or hack who has NOT dedicated to learning the traditional ways first.

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            • Brazoo
              Permanent Member
              • Feb 14, 2009
              • 4767

              #66
              Originally posted by samurainoir
              I've run into too many ridiculously talented artists who just couldn't adapt... Including one chap I met recently that rattled off a list of jobs and clients that certainly impressed me to no end, being a huge fanboy of old school illustration. I just about wept when I heard that he's driving a bus... And no longer a professional artist. He even laughed his *** off at me when I asked him about original art.

              Agreed! I have a friend who does incredible commercial illustrations - who should be earning 100 times what he is now and be a lot more well known - but he was such a technophobe for so long that it really held back his career. He actually does a lot of work with a computer in the art field now, but less creative work that he should be able to do.

              It's not JUST about creating art digitally or non-digitally, I think if you want to work commercially, you need to network, market yourself, know how to control the quality of your work in print and online AND for your archives/portfolio...

              And I guess someone could just get lucky and you could make enough to just pay people to do that stuff for you...

              Personally, I think it's more practical to just get a computer and take a few hours and learn this stuff. Scanning art, making it look good - checking the colours and levels - knowing what kinds of files to use where - trust me - it's NOT that hard.

              Comment

              • Brazoo
                Permanent Member
                • Feb 14, 2009
                • 4767

                #67
                Originally posted by kingdom warrior
                Scott sees it from the Pro view which I totally agree with. it's not easy to work with those tools BUT the fact that he WAS a traditional artist in the first place gives him the advantage that a young person or hack who has NOT dedicated to learning the traditional ways first.
                I agree that you need a foundation before you can do great quality work. I think it would be hard to get a solid foundation if you started creating art with a digital medium. I don't know if it would be impossible - maybe I just lack the vision to see it.

                Comment

                • kingdom warrior
                  OH JES!!
                  • Jul 21, 2005
                  • 12478

                  #68
                  Originally posted by Brazoo

                  It's not JUST about creating art digitally or non-digitally, I think if you want to work commercially, you need to network, market yourself, know how to control the quality of your work in print and online AND for your archives/portfolio...

                  And I guess someone could just get lucky and you could make enough to just pay people to do that stuff for you...

                  Personally, I think it's more practical to just get a computer and take a few hours and learn this stuff. Scanning art, making it look good - checking the colours and levels - knowing what kinds of files to use where - trust me - it's NOT that hard.
                  Yup,Yup and Yup.......it's not hard at all actually editing your work is just as important as doing the actual work.....

                  Comment

                  • Brazoo
                    Permanent Member
                    • Feb 14, 2009
                    • 4767

                    #69
                    Using photography as an example, I think you can learn about composition, use of light and shadow, colour theory - all the foundational concepts you need for any art medium. Like, you don't NEED to learn to draw or paint to be a great photographer.... Even though photography is modern technology. So I'm not sure if it's different than using digital mediums. Most digital mediums imitate or make use of other mediums to some degree - so it's hard to sift through for me.

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                    • Brazoo
                      Permanent Member
                      • Feb 14, 2009
                      • 4767

                      #70
                      Originally posted by kingdom warrior
                      Yup,Yup and Yup.......it's not hard at all actually editing your work is just as important as doing the actual work.....
                      Yeah - sorry, I didn't mean to imply that YOU didn't know that - I know you do!

                      I was just making a general point - hopefully trying to encourage enyawd not to think of learning this stuff as such stumbling block.

                      Comment

                      • kingdom warrior
                        OH JES!!
                        • Jul 21, 2005
                        • 12478

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Brazoo
                        Yeah - sorry, I didn't mean to imply that YOU didn't know that - I know you do!

                        I was just making a general point - hopefully trying to encourage enyawd not to think of learning this stuff as such stumbling block.
                        Hehehehe I know what you meant

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                        • megoscott
                          Founding Partner
                          • Nov 17, 2006
                          • 8710

                          #72
                          Originally posted by kingdom warrior
                          Scott sees it from the Pro view which I totally agree with. it's not easy to work with those tools BUT the fact that he WAS a traditional artist in the first place gives him the advantage that a young person or hack who has NOT dedicated to learning the traditional ways first.
                          It sounds to me like your real problem is with lazy, naive young artists looking for shortcuts. agreed!
                          This profile is no longer active.

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                          • samurainoir
                            Eloquent Member
                            • Dec 26, 2006
                            • 18758

                            #73
                            Originally posted by kingdom warrior
                            He told me you'd be surprised how many guys can't draw to save their lives and they're coming in for positions working on big time accounts, He said I'm not going to hand a Kid who can barely draw an account that's due in the morning if his computer goes down, I have to be assured that he can deliver hardcopy if need be, how's he gonna do that if he has no art skills to begin with?
                            okay, I'll bite.

                            What furshuluggin industry could you possibly be talking about where a "Big Account" client accepts something hand drawn as a deliverable outside of initial design and conceptual stages? Most luxury product these days are photography based... Just look at the world around you in billboards and magazines. Big accounts like Cars, Travel, banking, toys, Dining, cosmetics, clothing, shoes, movies, food... Photoshop rules the roost. Packaging, fonts, logos, typography... All digital. Even traditionally illustrated stuff generally gets passed through illustrator and photoshop before delivery for either major or minor revision, and they certainly don't go to print or live online on their own.

                            If you're talking about illustrations for licensed product... The busiest guys up here (who are also sometimes a comics company) are delivering coloured Digital To their clients even if the original art is hand drawn.

                            and the straw argument of what if your computer goes down honestly holds about as much water as what if you spill coffee on your drawing. At least you've likely backed up remotely online if you are a professional (dropbox) and we live in a society where we are surrounded by computers. I don't know any household or office environment that doesn't have multiple machines.
                            Last edited by samurainoir; Apr 25, '12, 6:54 PM.
                            My store in the MEGO MALL!

                            BUY THE CAPTAIN CANUCK ACTION FIGURE HERE!

                            Comment

                            • kingdom warrior
                              OH JES!!
                              • Jul 21, 2005
                              • 12478

                              #74
                              Originally posted by Brazoo
                              Using photography as an example, I think you can learn about composition, use of light and shadow, colour theory - all the foundational concepts you need for any art medium. Like, you don't NEED to learn to draw or paint to be a great photographer.... Even though photography is modern technology. So I'm not sure if it's different than using digital mediums. Most digital mediums imitate or make use of other mediums to some degree - so it's hard to sift through for me.
                              I think it goes hand in hand, if you're an artist you should take photography 101
                              I can here my College professor saying Reference! Reference! Reference! don't act like you know how to draw something look at it and take a picture of it, if you don't have a photographic memory.....lol

                              Alex Ross's career took off once he started working from his own photos so did painter Olivia and Patrick Nagel..........

                              Comment

                              • ctc
                                Fear the monkeybat!
                                • Aug 16, 2001
                                • 11183

                                #75
                                >no one paints colour traditionally anymore unless you have a grant from the National Film Board of Canada, and even then they think you are nuts. (all the animators I know up here are all in the 3-d game).

                                There are some diehards out there. Remember that a lot of the drift in technique happens for a lot of reasons. Digital became the thing ‘cos most print shops are digital.... it’s cheaper and easier than having plates made, separations, etchings, movable type.... Producers thought to remove the “middleman” by producing strictly digital work, since it’s gonna end up that way. I kinda suspect that’s why the digital colouring done in places like Japan and Europe (especially France and Italy) looks so good whereas ours doesn’t: those places had traditions of high quality colouring, facilitated by more complex printing being the norm. It was easier to adapt. For us, digital colouring meant altering our normal, flat colours (which look fine in the old school, 4-colour, low res days) to the larger palette and subtler effects of digital. (Creating, for the LONGEST time a muddy, urethaned mess.)

                                Sometimes the push comes from elsewhere, like higher up. A lot of animation companies went CGI ‘cos it’s easier and cheaper. It also tends to LOOK it; but I chalk it up to being the modern equivalent of HB’s “limited animation” techniques: a way to churn out product for the more voluminous tv market.

                                ....but for everyone else, the beautiful thing about the digital age is that you have a choice: I can do one chapter of my book as watercolour, one B&W inks, acrylic, airbrush, digital, marker and pencil.... and it all comes out of the print shop the same. ‘Course, the trick is adjusting the computer bits so’s to make it look like the original.... but like I said, that’s another skill set. I’d bet the main reason you don’t see more old school techniques from the Medium Two is ‘cos it doesn’t fit what the current idea of “correct” is for comic colour.

                                >I have come across tons of artist who take a pic, scan it then change it to a line drawing and then color it and say I'm an artist......really????

                                You can do that without a computer:

                                http://bleachness.livejournal.com/446299.html

                                I think that’s more a measure of the artist than the tools.

                                >Scanning art, making it look good - checking the colours and levels - knowing what kinds of files to use where - trust me - it's NOT that hard.

                                Depends on what you’re doing. I like to stick to the same techniques, and print shop because I’ve already got things down to where I want them. It’s not as hard as, oh.... watercolours, but it’s definitely a new skill and brings with it a new set of challenges.

                                >I think it would be hard to get a solid foundation if you started creating art with a digital medium.

                                You could. It’s like any other art form. I think people consider it a cheat ‘cos I can have the computer do my rotations, light effects, shadows.... I don’t have to really understand how that stuff works to pull it off. But I think you get the equivalent with TRADITIONAL art too. I’m thinking of comics in the 90's; how many guys would draw like Jim Lee without any real understanding of why they were putting stuff where they did. “Draw faces like this!” ‘Course, how much of Jim Lee was the same; “Art Adams does crosshatching like this, so if I do MORE of it, that’s good right?” You can go further back and trace the “Wood to Buschema” genealogy. It’s like having a computer do your hilighting: you put the flare here and the penumbra there because that’s the template, but you don’t know why.

                                Don C.

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