Am I really that out of the loop?

[kingdom warrior]

>Yes there is, there are Professionals and there are amateurs.

I disagree and agree with this. I think there are pros and amateurs, but I don't think the hardware seaprates them.

>an Amateur clicks and uses cheats to get his work done

True; but I think it shows in the work. That's why it's important to separate the ideas of "good" and "enjoyable." People tend to confuse them, so anything they like is de-facto good.

>a Pro critically thinks what he needs to do to make his design work.

THAT'S the key! There's a plan and a vision.... but I don't think it's how you get to your end-state that makes the dif; it's where that end-state is. Dip pen, computer, markers, finger paints.... it doesn't matter if it gets you where you want to go.

>Learning how to traditionally do art is how you understand how the Masters did it.

Yeah, but it's not a religion. You don't learn colour theory or rotations or perspective or which end of the pen goes in the ink because of some moral imperative or dogmatic tradition: you learn them becuse they work.

>once you master traditional you can then work in Digital if you so choose to do it.

This feels so bad to me 'cos I don't like computers, but.... there isn't a heirarchy of tool use. I don't have to master acrylics before being "allowed" to use watercolour or oils. They're different techniques and you can do them in whatever order you want, depending on what you hope to achieve. They share a lot of universal ideas.... like the aforementioned colour theory.... but they're not one interconnected whole. Oil is different from watercolour. Computer art is just another tool, separate from the rest.

I think part of the problem folks around here have with the CGI is that you've never seen any that doesn't suck. Overwrought movie effects and crappy comic colour that makes everything look plastic are the norm. I've seen some great computer stuff. (Mostly from Japan and Europe.) I've also seen how readily it becomes a crutch too.... but I've seen that with other techniques too. (Remember the 90's, where "draw like Jim Lee = success?")

>The end results may be the same

I don't think they are, but I don't think the tools or techniques denote that.

>but in the end the Pro will always do better because he can do IT ALL THE TIME over and over

Maybe; but everyone has an off day, or dries up.

>he or she is trained to come up with new ideas that the amateur can not do

THIS I disagree with a bunch. I think a lot of pros suffer from the need to do things "right," and end up doing the same things over and over. But this goes to the heart of my point: it's the underlying idea that I think marks the worth of the work.

Don C.

Great points Don! agree with a lot you said.....

[kingdom warrior]

You can work in non-digital mediums and stay in the shallow end too - I think the difference is that a lot of people learn the basics of computer graphics and THINK they're in the deep end, creatively.

From what I've observed.

This artist is a great example - from what I know, Jonathan Bergeron didn't touch computers for years, but got a Wacom tablet and does incredible digital work now:

Here's some of his recent traditional paintings: The art of JONATHAN BERGERON - 2011 Paintings

Here's some of his digital art: The art of JONATHAN BERGERON - Digital art

See this is where Digital works here's a very talented painter who learned to work on a computer and the work is almost exactly like his painted work....the ONLY down side is there is no physical Original to hang in a gallery or sell.....the Hardcore collector who wants to own the original will never have it. Big time problem years from now. Art collectors want original art not xerox print outs....

Ask Roberto(Blue Meanie) if he wants to own a REAL comic page or just have a high quality print of a comic book page......and see what he says....

[megoscott]

...anyone is a Rembrandt with Great computer software, but that does not make you an artist.......

Where can I get that software? Sounds awesome!

Seriously, it's not like there's a button in Photoshop that makes stuff look great. (Although we all know LENSE FLARE makes everything better...) If you have no sense of color or composition or proportion or whatever the computer doesn't help you. You are either an artist or you aren't, the medium doesn't matter. And when you can do something 100 times faster on a computer doesn't that help with the whole creative process?

I have a turn of the century travel poster on my living room wall. I stare at it all the time and marvel that it was done without Photoshop layers. The artist was undoubtedly talented and his technique with his materials was amazing, I could never touch it. And if he was working today he'd be using Photoshop and blowing people's minds.

I'm paraphrasing a friend of mine here: Anyone can learn to draw. Drawing is just a skill. It takes talent to do something good with it.

[samurainoir]

Just to pull the curtain back on this... Welcome to the age of influence rather than persuasion. This contest isn't really about the art (although crowd sourcing should in fact be the major topic all PRO designers and illustrators should be debating right now rather than tools).

I think the traditional Vs digital tools debate is moot. Even if you create traditionally, you need to be able to deliver digitally, we covered this. MegoScott is a terrific example of an artist who's job requires him to work digitally because that is where the animation industry has gone (and for the most part, monthly comics for the majors as well when it comes to colouring)... So if you don't work digitally, you don't get the work, Is that correct Scott? By definition, the difference between pro and amateur is that you get paid for your work.

The true purpose of these kind of contests is viral marketing... By entering into them and telling your friends to vote on them, you are also telling them that there is a Dark Shadows movie coming out starring Johnny Depp. The folks running this know that they will be receiving a ridiculous amount of unusable entries for their purposes, but it will be for the express purpose of directing traffic to their website or affiliate, not discovering the next big talent. As Earth 2 Chris mentioned in his Dark Knight thread, it's actually not votes that will ultimately decide... So why do they want you to ask all of your friends and family to vote? If you are inclined to enter, you are likely already a fan with a similar demographic of peers. Sad to say, but if you can't figure it out, you are likely outside the target demographic anyways. Particularly if this is the deviantArt crowd we are talking about.

Remember when they used to announce open casting calls for roles? They had them for any number of in development movies and tv shows. I seem to recall Wonder Woman had one years ago. But that s not how Hollywood generally works when casting a lead... Even if you are an unknown, to even get a real shot you need an agent to book you an audition. However, it creates a marketing opportunity that grabbed headlines and gave you a visual and a bite for Entertainment tonight.

Similarly, there is already an inter-company network of internal and external professional illustrators that they can call in to churn out t-shirt designs and happy meal packaging without going through the trouble and hassles of holding a contest. Seriously... they have Jose Garcia Lopez, do I need to say anymore?

So... They do not need to persuade you to tell your friends... They are influencing you to market for them. For free. Welcome to the world of social media.

[Mikey]

For me, as long as something is nice and I like it I don't care if it's been painted or digitally created.

Paintings are just a mess of color designed to fool your eyes --- so is digital art.

[Brazoo]

See this is where Digital works here's a very talented painter who learned to work on a computer and the work is almost exactly like his painted work....the ONLY down side is there is no physical Original to hang in a gallery or sell.....the Hardcore collector who wants to own the original will never have it. Big time problem years from now. Art collectors want original art not xerox print outs....

Ask Roberto(Blue Meanie) if he wants to own a REAL comic page or just have a high quality print of a comic book page......and see what he says....

In this case I believe Bergeron's digital work is for commercial gigs - so I don't think his intention was to sell original art for this stuff - but I get your point.

Obviously digital art has to be printed, so to me you have to compare it to print media art, not originals. I don't know if Roberto is interested in anything other than original art - he might not like ANY kind of prints (lithography, woodcuts, letterpress, screenprinting, etching...)

I think you're really underestimating the art market that exists for high quality digital prints. There's a huge and growing market for giclée prints.

Do I personally like giclées over other printing techniques or originals? No. Actually most of the art I own is screenprinted - and even then I prefer work that was created FOR screenprinting and printed by the artist.

My point being that everyone has personal likes and dislikes for different mediums. I know people who LOVE giclées, because they can't afford original work, but they love that they still have collector value - they're not just mass produced offset posters.

[megoscott]

MegoScott is a terrific example of an artist who's job requires him to work digitally because that is where the animation industry has gone (and for the most part, monthly comics for the majors as well when it comes to colouring)... Is that correct Scott?

I dunno, I'm kind of a hack myself. I have to admit that 15 years in digital art has killed my traditional chops. Plus doing background painting and color design is kind of a weird specialty. I'm constantly painting other people's pencil drawings. All that time I spent learning to draw...

But still I'm good at what I do and it's fun and satisfying to be part of a creative team.

[kingdom warrior]

I dunno, I'm kind of a hack myself. I have to admit that 15 years in digital art has killed my traditional chops. Plus doing background painting and color design is kind of a weird specialty. I'm constantly painting other people's pencil drawings. All that time I spent learning to draw...

But still I'm good at what I do and it's fun and satisfying to be part of a creative team.

Scott I saw your Digital stuff you ain't no hack....that takes a lot of skill to paint backgrounds for animation......no easy task

[jimsmegos]

>However the inability to translate it into proper pixels and resolution leaves it virtually worthless on the digital stage. A true waste.

It's a separate skill set. I still maintain that there isn't a correct way to do any art; it's all about the end result.

As for the tech thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saPhxZZQCWk

Don C.

I agree with your point. What I was saying that if you are missing the skills or don't know someone who can convert your hardcopy into the proper digital file, the piece is unusable for the project.

[Brazoo]

Just to pull the curtain back on this... Welcome to the age of influence rather than persuasion. This contest isn't really about the art (although crowd sourcing should in fact be the major topic all PRO designers and illustrators should be debating right now rather than tools).

I think the traditional Vs digital tools debate is moot. Even if you create traditionally, you need to be able to deliver digitally, we covered this. MegoScott is a terrific example of an artist who's job requires him to work digitally because that is where the animation industry has gone (and for the most part, monthly comics for the majors as well when it comes to colouring)... Is that correct Scott?

The true purpose of these kind of contests is viral marketing... By entering into them and telling your friends to vote on them, you are also telling them that there is a Dark Shadows movie coming out starring Johnny Depp. The folks running this know that they will be receiving a ridiculous amount of unusable entries for their purposes, but it will be for the express purpose of directing traffic to their website or affiliate, not discovering the next big talent. As Earth 2 Chris mentioned in his Dark Knight thread, it's actually not votes that will ultimately decide... So why do they want you to ask all of your friends and family to vote? If you are inclined to enter, you are likely already a fan with a similar demographic of peers.

Remember when they used to announce open casting calls for roles? They had them for any number of in development movies and tv shows. I seem to recall Wonder Woman had one years ago. But that s not how Hollywood generally works when casting a lead... Even if you are an unknown, to even get a real shot you need an agent to book you an audition. However, it creates a marketing opportunity that grabbed headlines and gave you a visual and a bite for Entertainment tonight.

Similarly, there is already an inter-company network of internal and external professional illustrators that they can call in to churn out t-shirt designs and happy meal packaging without going through the trouble and hassles of holding a contest. Seriously... they have Jose Garcia Lopez, do I need to say anymore?

So... They do not need to persuade you to tell your friends... They are influencing you to market for them. Welcome to the world of social media.

Haha - I almost started post about this about this about three times now, and stopped myself because it seemed to open a whole other can of worms...

I agree - crowd sourcing IS a horrible bi-product of modern technology that devalues art much more than anything else about the digital age.

One other thing to keep in mind, is that ANYTHING you enter into these contests you usually give up your ownership rights. In this case the intellectual property is owned by WB anyway - so it's not a big deal - but in some cases you could be giving up work you fully created, if you don't watch it.

Big picture - at best you're getting practice creating work for an assignment, likely for free. You're being used for marketing, not for your art skill. Personally, I think enyawd is better than that - from what I've seen.

[kingdom warrior]

In this case I believe Bergeron's digital work is for commercial gigs - so I don't think his intention was to sell original art for this stuff - but I get your point.

Obviously digital art has to be printed, so to me you have to compare it to print media art, not originals. I don't know if Roberto is interested in anything other than original art - he might not like ANY kind of prints (lithography, woodcuts, letterpress, screenprinting, etching...)

I think you're really underestimating the art market that exists for high quality digital prints. There's a huge and growing market for giclée prints.

Do I personally like giclées over other printing techniques or originals? No. Actually most of the art I own is screenprinted - and even then I prefer work that was created FOR screenprinting and printed by the artist.

My point being that everyone has personal likes and dislikes for different mediums. I know people who LOVE giclées, because they can't afford original work, but they love that they still have collector value - they're not just mass produced offset posters.

I hear ya, giclées are high end prints when you can't own the original.....but if you're an art collector you will never be satisfied with this.....but i get you...

[kingdom warrior]

Where can I get that software? Sounds awesome!

Seriously, it's not like there's a button in Photoshop that makes stuff look great. (Although we all know LENSE FLARE makes everything better...) If you have no sense of color or composition or proportion or whatever the computer doesn't help you. You are either an artist or you aren't, the medium doesn't matter. And when you can do something 100 times faster on a computer doesn't that help with the whole creative process?

I have a turn of the century travel poster on my living room wall. I stare at it all the time and marvel that it was done without Photoshop layers. The artist was undoubtedly talented and his technique with his materials was amazing, I could never touch it. And if he was working today he'd be using Photoshop and blowing people's minds.

I'm paraphrasing a friend of mine here: Anyone can learn to draw. Drawing is just a skill. It takes talent to do something good with it.

Scott, I was being sarcastic when I said that little Rembrandt thing lol. but I'm pointing out artist who without that software come nowhere close to doing what they do on a piece of paper or Canvas. for me. that's a cheat. Yes i understand that it's another tool, but if that tool did not exist either that artist strings along as a hack or really sits down and learns his craft the hard way by drawing and painting all the time..........

I'm not in any way speaking of the Pro who decides to use digital software

[ctc]

>What I was saying that if you are missing the skills or don't know someone who can convert your hardcopy into the proper digital file, the piece is unusable for the project.

True; and I think a lot of the rift between traditionalists and digitalists does a disservice to both in this regard. As an artist, you always want to be ADDING to your repitoire. The more techniques you master, the better the finished product.

As a comic guy, I find one of the great things about digital is that anyone can produce a comic and get it out there for folks to see. No publisher, no printer, no real cost. (Except bandwidth.) 'Course that means a lot of really, REALLY bad stuff gets out there; but that's more than made up for by the good stuff that would never have been seen otherwise. Even the bad stuff can have merit too. I've seen a lot of comics with awesome ideas, characters, scenes.... even though the person doing them is a horrible artist, or cruddy writer.... or both!

Don C.

[kingdom warrior]

>the difference between pro and amateur is that you get paid for your work.

No, the difference is you take pride in learning your craft, can take a critique (without crying when your art directer rips apart your work) and you can deliver on time to meet tight deadlines.

That's a Pro

Even a Hack can get paid for a bad job done....look up Rob Liefield....

[megoscott]

But I don't understand how is it a cheat? Sitting down to learn oil painting techniques and sitting down to learn Fractal Painter are different sides of the same coin. It's just learning to manipulate a medium. The fundamentals of drawing don't change from paper to digital tablet, the fundamentals of color aren't limited to tubes of acrylic paint.