Vinnie Vincent former Kiss guitarist is a giant loser now

[livnxxxl]

I usually do not speak bad about people unless they are truly deserving of the fact. Having said that....

Here is my story...

I met The Vinnie Vincent Invasion years ago and got my All Systems Go and Invasion CD's autographed by all of the band members. That was pretty cool.

Even when I was younger at that time I noticed that Vinnie seemed to be stuck on himself. His nose was so far up in the air that if it had rained that day he would have drowned. All of the other band members were totally awesome including Mark Slaughter. Vinnie acted as if he was too good to be seen in public and that he would have much rather been anywhere then there that day.

Vinnie was a great guitarist and I really liked his music. I will definitely give credit where credit is due. However, even today it looks like his actions speak for themself. He seemed like a real prick back then and he seems to still be a big prick today. IF I were to even bother seeing him today by chance I would tell him the same thing that I am writing here right now only to his face in person.

[livnxxxl]

KISS is and will always be Gene, Paul, Peter and Ace.

SC

I totally agree. That has always been the KISS that I have known to like.

[livnxxxl]

.. and looks like a lady... a really ugly one!

Very true.

[Dark Shadow]

Well said MIB41.

I find it interesting that neither you nor I said anything nasty about Vinnie, while some of the other comments are outright mean spirited, we merely challenged the notion that Vincent single-handedly saved KISS. Yet we were the only two who were specifically called out in a post that addressed us, among the others, as Vinnie haters.

I don't hate Vinnie either, but I don't hold him with any higher regard as a song writer than I would hold the other number of song writers who collaborated with Gene & Paul over the years (Bob Ezrin, Sean Delaney, Vini Poncia, Adam Mitchell, Desmond Child to name a few of many). And as far as his guitar skills go, he was impressive but not extraordinary. Mark, Bruce & Tommy (were) are talented & impressive players as well. Ace's stylisticly talented timeless contributions have inspired generations of young hopefuls and will remain the most impactful of all 5 of KISS's guitarists.

So if you want to heap loads of credit on Vinnie for CO-WRITING Lick it Up and I Love it Loud, go right ahead. BTW which part did he write? The music to those songs is very much in the vein of Paul's style, so how or why you think Vinnie composed that work is beyond me. Perhaps he wrote some of the lyrics? Perhaps he composed his own guitar riff in the middle? Just remember that's Paul's song too. Just like I Love it Loud is co written by Gene as well. Those songs would have been there without Vinnie.

EXACTLY! What parts did Vinnie specifically contribute to Lick It Up & I Love It Loud? I think it’s a safe bet to say that Vinnie’s contributions to the Lick It Up single were minimal. Anyone who understands Paul and his pride should certainly understand that he would not perform somebody else’s “masterpiece” night after night, year after year and include it on both of his solo tours. He’s just too proud of that song for it to be somebody else’s primary achievement.

Gene does not necessarily have that same level of pride. For example, he’s performed God of Thunder throughout most of the makeup tours and it's not his handy work. Interestingly enough, once Paul publicly stated (during interviews in support of Sonic Boom) that he likes the idea that Gene’s signature song was written by him, GOT has not been included on the set list, not even for a single show! Could be a simple coincidence That being said, I Love It Loud sounds more like standard KISS to me, than say Killer. So again, I think it's a safe bet that Vinnie's work on ILIL was also minimal.

But this idea that Vinnie "SAVED" KISS when he clearly couldn't even manage a hit for himself is well past reason. If he was bursting with talent and ideas, why didn't any of his solo songs have the same affection as Lick it up or I Love it Loud? 'Nuff said.

A question I’ve yet to hear explained, it's usually avoided altogether or dismissed as irrelevant.


Now this is strictly my opinion, granted, but I think the strongest songs on CON are four of the six that Vinnie didn’t co-write (Creatures Of The Night, Saint And Sinner, Danger & War Machine). Keep Me Coming falls right in between my favorite four and what I perceive to be the weaker offerings (ILIL, I Still Love You & Killer). Rock And Roll Hell is my least favorite tune on the entire album. I bought that record, as usual, on its release date and formed my likes & dislikes long before any of us fans even knew who Vinnie Vincent was.

[MIB41]

Unless I read wrong...I really think there are major misconceptions
on Dark Shadows and MIB41s part.

1) Gene never wanted to split KISS

2) Paul may have maintained the band in the 80s, but for guys like
me it was Gene's mere presence over Paul's that kept me interested...
so hit singles are not "everything"... and, to repeat, Vinnie co-wote
two of KISS' most revered songs during that period... and one of them
was a big single that Paul sang.

3) Ace may have "packed his toys" but Peter did NOT... he was fired
because he was so useless.

4) What KISS did with Bruce being seen as "much better" is
as Twiki said, an opinion. The 2 Vinnie albums are what brought
KISS into 80s metal/hard rock and the remaining Bruce albums
are virtually ignored comparitively in today's KISS sets comapred
to the Vinnie material ... LIU, ILIL and UNHOLY (which Bruce played on
but did not write... Bruce actually had NO successful KISS song cowrites).

Okay Huedell. I'm always up for a KISS conference. Gene was not invested in the band during the 80's and has admitted so extensively on video. He leaned so far outside KISS with managing other bands and involving himself in movies that Paul was publicly calling him out on it. It's a safe bet if his movie career had taken off, he was gone. Gene was clearly looking outside the band for a new career. So yeah I maintain his desire to leave was on the table. He reinvested himself once he realized KISS was the only vice he could be successful in. As far as his presence in KISS keeping you around, well... that was a personal choice by you, and not what sold albums. Paul was clearly the man who carried KISS on his back through the 80's. That is evident to anyone who followed them back then. So if you want to heap loads of credit on Vinnie for CO-WRITING Lick it Up and I Love it Loud, go right ahead. BTW which part did he write? The music to those songs is very much in the vein of Paul's style, so how or why you think Vinnie composed that work is beyond me. Perhaps he wrote some of the lyrics? Perhaps he composed his own guitar riff in the middle? Just remember that's Paul's song too. Just like I Love it Loud is co written by Gene as well. Those songs would have been there without Vinnie.

I am not a Vinnie hater by no stretch. But this idea that Vinnie "SAVED" KISS when he clearly couldn't even manage a hit for himself is well past reason. If he was bursting with talent and ideas, why didn't any of his solo songs have the same affection as Lick it up or I Love it Loud? 'Nuff said.

A couple of points on Ace and Peter your overlooking. While Peter was voted out of the band, he remained an equal partner in KISS until 1987. That's right. Peter continued to receive a quarter of everything KISS earned because at the time of his dismissal, the band did not foresee their star dimming and felt they could just ask Peter to step away from the stage and replace him with a hired gun (Eric Carr). They ended up having to buy him out because his portion was taking to much of a strain on them financially.

Remember how hard they tried to keep Ace in the band in the early 80's? Remember how Ace was shown on the cover of Creatures even though he didn't play on it? Did you ever ask yourself why that was? When KISS signed with Polygram in 1980 they already knew Peter was out. Polygram knew this and so the deal was made based on the idea that all of the remaining band members - Paul, Gene, and Ace - would remain. It was a rich contract filled with perks because everyone thought their popularity would continue from the 70's. As we all know, it plummeted. Record sales plunged and tours within the US were at an all time low. KISS was in trouble. And worse Ace wanted to leave.

Polygram was unhappy with the band's commercial performance and was reluctant to continue paying into that contract. Not only that, but they had to pay back vendors for the return on the solo albums. Yes. In those days albums were register platinum and gold based on shipping amounts, not actual sales. If stores could not sell them, a percentage could be returned for refunds. So Polygram was drowning in debt from those bad deals with Casablanca and this new contract with a band that was no longer selling. Ace leaving provided them an out. Paul and Gene did everything they could to keep Ace there to prevent a breach of contract. Eventually they could no longer cover his departure and the label took them back to court and restructured the deal. Kiss was on the hook for a lot more expenses now and they had to tour just to break even. While albums sold descent, most of that money went back to Polygram in the restructured deal to recoop costs from the solo records. Kiss even had a Lawyer firm here in Louisville help finance production costs for Animalize, which had to be paid back after the tour was over.

THAT is why Gene was looking to get out and THAT is why Paul deserves the credit for holding everything together. KISS had every reason to end and Paul was the only one keeping things afloat. Gene was really of no help and is very quick to point that out. Commercially Creatures tanked and the tour was cancelled early for poor attendance. Lick it Up was successful because KISS took the makeup off. And as Paul has said, people listen with their eyes.This generated interest again and their tour, while still not wildly successful, began to draw more people. It was when Animalize came out and KISS had the hit "Heaven's on Fire', that they became a major tour attraction again. Financially they were not saved by Creatures or Lick it up. And Revenge was one of their worst tours in the bands history. That album only went Gold. So Vinnie's contributions were never THAT important, nor did he help the band when they needed stability to keep focus on holding things together. Quite the opposite. He was a distraction and imperiled their career because he became yet another member they had to replace while Paul juggled the pieces. I imagine there is no one as satisfied with KISS' success these days than Paul. This is truly his reward for pushing through the hard times when no one, INCLUDING GENE, believed in the band.

[Remco Monster]

In my world KISS has been dead since about 1979. All these pro Vinnie posts just make me chuckle.

[CrimsonGhost]

I'd like to see the stats on Vinnie's dog containers.

[Dark Shadow]

... I could address all the inaccuracies
that I see in your latest post (and there are many... almost as many as you
have points trying to be made)... and maybe I WILL... tomorrow.

Your "facts" are one-dimensional numbers, sterile in the "3-D' history
and BUSINESS SUCCESS of KISS... but more on that tomorrow.

Before you go on an all-out-assault on my rebuttals, and cloud the issue any further, I would really appreciate it if you could simply "make your case" and address the original point that I made. We can address my other "inaccuracies", if you like, after we resolve the original dispute. The statement which you (and Twiki) initially took issue with is as follows:

"Kiss did much better in album sales & concert attendance between Mid 1984 - late 1990 (with Bruce Kulick on board):"

I backed that statement up with historical attendance records, album chart records, single chart records and album certifications made by the RIAA. Please keep in mind that my statement is strictly in regard to the financial successes incurred. Also keep in mind that my statement does not infer or make any claims of artistic superiority, nor does it speculate on core fan base preferences.

Please explain how my statement is incorrect and please explain exactly how this is personal opinion vs. historical fact.
_______________________________________

For your convenience, a summary of the facts I presented previously:

Creatures of the Night*, Gold LP #45 / I Love It Loud #22 / 56 Shows Performed
Lick It Up, Platinum LP #24 / Lick It Up (single) #66 / 94 Shows Performed
Animalize, Platinum LP #19 / Heaven's On Fire #11 / 119 Shows Performed
Asylum, Gold LP #20 / Tears Are Falling #20 / 91 Shows Performed
Crazy Nights, Platinum LP #18 / Crazy Crazy Nights #37, Reason To Live #34 / 129 Shows Performed
Hot In The Shade**, Gold LP #29 / Hide Your Heart #22, Forever #8, Rise To It #40 / 123 Shows Performed

*Please note that it took nearly 12 years for CON to earn Gold status. Status was awarded in 5/94. All other certifications mentioned above were earned within a few weeks or months of the original release date.

**The Gold status on HITS is disputed, it is believed that the album reached Platinum status but has yet to be certified.

[huedell]

It's perfectly OK to support somebody you admire, even if it's from an emotional standpoint. However, lashing out at people who present facts will never change those facts.

Your "facts" are one-dimensional numbers, sterile in the "3-D' history
and BUSINESS SUCCESS of KISS... but more on that tomorrow.

[huedell]

huedell - It seems the misconceptions are all yours.
[LIST]1. I never stated or inferred that Gene wanted to "split KISS".

"All" mine?

GONG!

MIB was the one that mentioned "split" and I included him in my
original "post challenge"... I could address all the inaccuracies
that I see in your latest post (and there are many... almost as many as you
have points trying to be made)... and maybe I WILL... tomorrow.

But right out of the gate you struck a strike, so... that's it for now
at 2:26 am.

[Dark Shadow]

Twiki -

Vinnie single handedly saved an iconic band, yet can't create any semblance of success for himself?

There's a reason the press always links Vincent to KISS when reporting a story about him (even though he was in the band for less than 1.5 years and has been out of it for 27 years). It's because they can't "tie" him to anything else that the vast majority of people would recognize.

It's perfectly OK to support somebody you admire, even if it's from an emotional standpoint. However, lashing out at people who present facts will never change those facts.

[Dark Shadow]

huedell - It seems the misconceptions are all yours.

• 1. I never stated or inferred that Gene wanted to "split KISS", I merely remarked about the fact that Paul was focused in on the band in the 80's while Gene's mind was elsewhere, a fact that Gene readily admits to. Whether one personally likes Gene or Paul more than the other is completely irrelevant to what occurred.

• 2. Like it or not, the music industry is a business, and businesses are defined by their monetary success. Therefore, hits, album sales & concert attendance revenue are ALL that matters when measuring success. What is “revered” by the fan base does not translate into what creates financial success. Just because I revere Detroit Rock City more than I do Beth does not mean that Beth was less successful than DRC.

• 3. Interesting, did I specify that it was Peter who packed up his toys?

• 4. The charting stats I provided are factual and are taken directly from historical data, and I certainly didn’t make up the RIAA certifications or the number of shows that were performed. KISS was more financially successful in the 80’s after Vinnie left than they were when he was in the band. Not my opinion, historical fact.
  
  Also, I think you may have overlooked the fact that Heaven’s On Fire has been played as much as or more than Unholy. And your claim that the "remaining Bruce" albums are ignored in today's KISS sets is factually incorrect. Crazy Crazy Nights & God Gave R&R To You ll have been staples on the two most recent tours, where as Unholy hasn't been played live since 2004.

• FYI: Creatures is one of my top 3 all time fave albums & tours, however, I try not to let my personal opinion cloud the facts behind the financial success of that album or tour.
  
  Below are the actual chart numbers for the relevant 80's albums & their hit singles:
  
  Creatures of the Night LP #45 / I Love It Loud #22
  Lick It Up LP #24 / Lick It Up (single) #66
  Animalize LP #19 / Heaven's On Fire #11
  Asylum LP #20 / Tears Are Falling #20
  Crazy Nights LP #18 / Crazy Crazy Nights #37, Reason To Live #34
  Hot In The Shade LP #29 / Hide Your Heart #22, Forever #8, Rise To It #40

[huedell]

Unless I read wrong...I really think there are major misconceptions
on Dark Shadows and MIB41s part.

1) Gene never wanted to split KISS

2) Paul may have maintained the band in the 80s, but for guys like
me it was Gene's mere presence over Paul's that kept me interested...
so hit singles are not "everything"... and, to repeat, Vinnie co-wote
two of KISS' most revered songs during that period... and one of them
was a big single that Paul sang.

3) Ace may have "packed his toys" but Peter did NOT... he was fired
because he was so useless.

4) What KISS did with Bruce being seen as "much better" is
as Twiki said, an opinion. The 2 Vinnie albums are what brought
KISS into 80s metal/hard rock and the remaining Bruce albums
are virtually ignored comparitively in today's KISS sets comapred
to the Vinnie material ... LIU, ILIL and UNHOLY (which Bruce played on
but did not write... Bruce actually had NO successful KISS song cowrites).

[Dark Shadow]

Thanks MIB41...and I agree, Paul was the one who maintained focus and direction.

_________________________________________

Paul, Gene, Ace & Peter were great from 1973 to 1977.

The band started to wane when the drummer & the lead guitarist decided they wanted to shuck their backbone roles and fight for the spotlight. It became an "us" vs. "them" mentality. Engaging in excessive substance abuse and becoming adversarial never works in your favor when you're demanding respect. And packing up your toys & going home, well that's just the weakest card to play...in any circumstance.

[huedell]

There are a lot of "Vinnie haters" here,
so I'll be the one dissenting voice here....

The album in which Vinnie contributed three co-writes
(CREATURES OF THE NIGHT) is in KISS' top 5 albums
as far as good songs IMHO... and will always
be known as their "best metal" album following KISS' "classic" era
which ranged from hard rock to prog to disco & didn't really
embrace metal until Vinnie joined.

Songs from CREATURES helped usher in a "new" "heavier" KISS...
and the song I LOVE IT LOUD, which Vinnie co-wrote might not have
"sold" a lot... but it is one of KISS' most respected songs bar none.
It is STILL consistently included in setlists to this day.

The CREATURES album helped raise KISS' profile within their slipping
core fans, but it was Vinnie's NEXT KISS album contributions that
helped the band actually start toi sell respectable numbers with an overall
audience.... the album was LICK IT UP, and the title track is one
of the most enduring hard rock tracks from the 80s that KISS will
continue to pimp in their setlist til they drop.

9 years after LICK IT UP, the album REVENGE, as CREATURES did before
it... redefined KISS... and of the 3 Vinnie co-writes on REVENGE,
UNHOLY was another setlist mainstay due to it's incredible impact
on revitalizing Gene's demon image. Altho not as recognizable as
I LOVE IT LOUD, UNHOLY is still included in the set these days as well.

Your facts are just your opinion bro...your telling me Lick It Up which Vinnie co wrote is not one of KISS' biggest songs?? or I Love it loud?? Kiss never had a ton of "hits" but what they did have was immensly popular songs...and sorry but I love it loud and Lick it up are two of their biggest....those are two of the songs that saved their ***...Lick It Up was the only popular song off of that album....I love it loud was the only video made from Creatures,two of vinnies songs were released as singles for revenge...

Several EX kiss members are considered losers by most peoples standards...Ace was an alcoholic,drug addict junkie who is notorius for treating his fans like crap...Peter was guilty of the same for decades...aside from Beth which Peter cowrote with multiple other people what songs did he write that helped carry KISS on to this very day?

I hear ya.... I was posting the above while YOU were posting YOUR above