Can someone explain the logic behind widescreen ?

[jimbutsu]

Mike- to answer your question about "why" we're losing the space -

Originally, before Television, EVERYTHING was the 4:3 television size that you're used to now, and directors framed shots so that everything that was part of the story they wanted to tell fit in the more square space. That's why there's no "widescreen" version of older films- they really were shot in the 4:3 that you're used to. Widescreen displays have "pillarbox" (bars on the sides of the screen) to counter 4:3 TV's "letterbox" (bars on the top and bottom of the screen); good eample of these in action are the Hi-Def releases of the Errol Flynn Robin Hood movie- always has bars on it when you play it back.

At some point, filmmakers realized that viewing spaces are generally wider than they are tall (think movie theaters), so making the screen more rectangular than square created a more immersive experience for the viewer. TV didn't do this for many years because film and television were different media (although, as Dave said, many TV shows were shot on film and can be "wide" even if they were never presented as such). Home theater and HD technology did two things- it made people more interested in their TVs being more like filmscreens (wider), and it made people want the biggest possible screens. Big screens, because of the shape of 90+% of rooms you will ever be in, must be wider than they are tall by a fair bit.

That being the case, directors are now shooting for the screen width they want to use- so as long as the display is appropriate to the intent of the filmmaker, you won't miss a thing. But until they make a TV that can change shape on the fly, we'll either have bars on the top and bottom or bars on the sides.

[mego73]

Not to mention that sometimes an open matte transfer will reveal nudity that wasn't meant to be seen.

Yup, Sissy Spacek sure found that out.

[mego73]

I've got an HDTV and Letterman has the grey bars on either side of the screen, where Leno fills the whole screen... What's up with the Letterman show?

In HD it does fill up the whole screen. Either you aren't on the HD channel version of your local CBS affiliate or your CBS affiliate does not yet broadcast in HD (even though CBS does).

It's not a given that stations carry network's HD signals. My Fox affiliate only started to broadcast in HD less than a year ago.

P.S. The show following Letterman (Craig Ferguson) is not yet in HD.

[apes3978]

Are you sure you are watching Letterman from a HD source? I watch it over the air in HD and it definitely fills the whole screen like Leno does.

I'll double check tomorrow night, but as I said the last time I tuned into Letterman, there were grey bars on the sides of the screen... it was that way with the show following it too... (And yes, the local affiliate for CBS is broadcasting in HD, and my TV is also HD.)

[cjefferys]

This is why there were times that theatrical films were shown unmatted on TV and you ended up seeing a whole bunch of boom mikes in the shot and other stuff not meant to be seen (like on the early release VHS of Pee Wee's Big Adventure which had a couple camera tricks exposed because it was transferred open matte)

Not to mention that sometimes an open matte transfer will reveal nudity that wasn't meant to be seen.

[cjefferys]

I've got an HDTV and Letterman has the grey bars on either side of the screen, where Leno fills the whole screen... What's up with the Letterman show?

Are you sure you are watching Letterman from a HD source? I watch it over the air in HD and it definitely fills the whole screen like Leno does.

[apes3978]

There's also 16:9 stuff shot to be 4:3 safe. Like Late Show With David Letterman. On HDTV, it's the 16:9 ratio, on standard TV it's 4:3 but cropped at the sides. It's shot so that it works both ways (nothing too important on the sides).

I've got an HDTV and Letterman has the grey bars on either side of the screen, where Leno fills the whole screen... What's up with the Letterman show?

[mego73]

There's also 16:9 stuff shot to be 4:3 safe. Like Late Show With David Letterman. On HDTV, it's the 16:9 ratio, on standard TV it's 4:3 but cropped at the sides. It's shot so that it works both ways (nothing too important on the sides).

Saturday Night Live, however, shows on standard TV letterboxed so they don't have to worry about being 4:3 safe.

edited to add: I wrote all this before I looked at DaveMC's post.

I know that shows were beginning to be shot widescreen ever since the 90's but as far as I know, up until at least the 1980's shows were shot in the Academy ratio (1.33 to 1) film Which fit the TV ratio for the most part.

Widescreen in movies is still mostly based of a 1.33 to 1 film frame. In the case of Cinemascope or Panavision, the widescreen image is squeezed on the square film frame. In the case of 1.65-1.85 to one movies the films are shot on a square frame with the intention of matting off the top and bottom. This is why there were times that theatrical films were shown unmatted on TV and you ended up seeing a whole bunch of boom mikes in the shot and other stuff not meant to be seen (like on the early release VHS of Pee Wee's Big Adventure which had a couple camera tricks exposed because it was transferred open matte)

[Mikey]

Thanks for explaining it Dave

Crazy as it sounds, i'm beginning to understand

[boss]

what Dave said.

[Bill]

[cjefferys]

Chopping the sides off widescreen movies into pan and scan is bad. Chopping the top and bottom off of fullscreen movies and TV shows is also bad. Movies and TV shows are obviously alway best in their original aspect ratio.

New shows filmed in widescreen are not losing any image on the top or bottom. They are just getting more image on the sides. Widescreen TVs still let you watch Full frame movies and TV shows without stretching them into a fake widescreen. You just get back bars on the sides.

Yep. The original aspect ratio, what the movie or TV show's director intended for the audience to see, is what is important. As long as the OAR is respected, I'm happy. Most shows are still shot 4x3 and 16x9 safe, just so nothing important is missed (or nothing that isn't meant to be seen isn't, eg. boom mikes) in either format, just to cover the bases, but whichever one the director thinks is the true ratio (ie. the shots are composed with that ratio in mind) is the one I want to watch. This includes new TV shows that are shot for widescreen.

I'm one of those people who refuses to watch full screen movies, and refuses to stretch 4x3 material to fit a widescreen TV. Letterboxing and pillarboxing don't bother me at all.

[Dave Mc]

You're thinking backwards Mike. TV shows and movies, anything that is filmed, is usually done so in a widescreen format. It's the nature of the medium. Most TV shows are filmed (or in today's case shot in HD) so it's native format truly is widescreen. In most cases, you ARE seeing the top and bottom of the picture, whether you are watching 4x3 or 16x9. What would happen in the TV world (even back in the day) is a TV show would be shot widescreen, but they would frame everything in the center of the screen because they knew they were going to crop off the sides. Then in post production, the sides get cropped and the show would get mastered in a square, even though the original film was actually widescreen.

Now, what does happen with older shows is since they were mastered with those sides cropped off, they go back and crop off a little of the top and bottom to make it letterboxed. That happened early on in the transition to anamorphic widescreen, but it doesn't happen much anymore.

For the most part you have to think of it this way. Standard def's 4x3 image has robbed us of part of our picture for years, and I'm talking TV shows, not films here. We are now just getting it back. Most of the older shows I've purchased don't come letterboxed because they were never mastered that way. But in the case of all new shows, it is the 4x3 format that is cropping off the sides, not the 16x9 format cropping off the top and bottom.

[Mikey]

Some of you people are missing my point.

I'm NOT talking about theatrical movies that were filmed in letterbox.

I hate when these movies are turned into pan-and-scan for TV too.

I'm talking about NEW televison shows that are filmed in letterbox.

[Hotfoot]

Wide-screen vs. 4:3 - Ultimate HDTV buying guide - HDTV World - CNET.com