INCREDIBLE HULK question for the comic readers

[huedell]

Recently, I've been on a Bixby Hulk bender. I've been watching the shows, and to accompany that I've been noting all the documentary material on the series I can scrape up on the Net.

I used to take creator Ken Johnson's stance that the Hulk could not be heard speaking as he had been heard in the comics because it would hurt the believability of the character in a live-action world that wasn't satirical.

It wasn't just the Avengers Hulk-speak that changed my mind on that matter, it was the obvious single-mindnedness that Johnson had on artistic matters that revealed to me that Johnson's ideas weren't always for the best, despite them being passionately voiced.

Johnson's complete remorseless stance on his dedication to eliminating the Hulk's iconic color in favor of the color of anger---red--- is a good example of that. If Bixby's Hulk would have been red, the connection to the icon would have been even more tenuous than it already was. Up to that point, no one had saw him as a red beast---green was so much a part of the character IMHO that they wouldn't have even been able to legitimately do the show that way---unless of course, they titled the show "The Red Hulk" at least that would have been an attempt at discerning that great difference.

Now, of course they eventually had the Hulk appear in the color red in the comics, but, with the Hulk TV show being the characters origins catering to a mainstream audience, I'm just not buying the "Red Hulk" preference from Johnson.

My question to the comicbook readers (the same people who could comment on the Red Hulk in the comics with wisdom) is somewhat regarding the Bixby Hulk--and it's also regarding an aspect of the comics as well.

After Bixby took Johnson's place as main creative controller during the reunion movie era, Bixby's fictional character of Banner/Hulk died, and before plans could be carried out for that version of the Hulk to be "resurrected" in a script called "Revenge Of The Hulk" Bixby died in real life and the 4th reunion movie died with him. In the Revenge story, the Hulk was to be resurrected with Banner's mind controlling the monster.

Now here's the actual question: I know there are various eras of the Hulk comicbook where the Hulk had Banner's mind, but why was that dramatically significant to do for more than an issue?

What stories and or issues of the well-established Banner/Hulk character were of note to explore with Hulk having Banner's brain?

It just seems kinda flat to me---nowhere to go except pale imitations of Thing (Fantastic Four) or Beast (X-Men) type stories. isn't it a huge part of the character's identity to have those two totally different personas---is making a live-action version of that like a serious "Popeye" rendering?

Ruffalo's Hulk can change at will---but then he doesn't have complete control---does he? And even if he does, he can't communicate it---right?

Anyways, just something I've been pondering about. Thanks in advance for any thoughts on the matter.

[monitor_ep]

One of the problems that readers began to take note was Hulk was the only character who had a separate personna, so they tired to explain

As a child, Banner's father Brian often got mad and physically abused both Banner and his mother, creating the psychological complex of fear, anger, and the fear of anger and the destruction it can cause that underlies the character.

but when other gamma creatures where created they did not still obtained there human mind creating a confused reader. Some time in the 80's Banner gained control of Hulks mind creating the "Smart Hulk" era until the net writer decided to nix that idea and bring back the "Savage Hulk".

Stan Lee took the idea of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and created the Hulk without thinking about other gamma creatures.

[huedell]

Some time in the 80's Banner gained control of Hulks mind creating the "Smart Hulk" era until the net writer decided to nix that idea and bring back the "Savage Hulk".

Thanks for the info---cool to hear any summation of the whole Hulk-psyche journey.

From what you commented on, what I'd be most interested to hear further musings on by you or other posters, would be the "smart Hulk" era you referred to above.

Was there anything cool that was "put to the comic page" during that era as far as story-telling---making it a worthy detour----or was it a total wrong turn---just a writing experiment bearing no fruit?

For the Bixby show---I guess, at the least, there would've been some novelty to seeing the familiar set-up changed up---who knows, may be, if Bixby would have lived, they not only would have done "Smart Hulk" ---but maybe they would have done their take on "Red Hulk" too---which, thinking retro-actively, they WOULDN'T have been able to do if he was colored red like Johnson wanted to do originally.

[hedrap]

Good thing ya picked a Saturday, Hue. You hit a big one for me.

Hulk's my character since kidhood. I've sold the majority of my collection, but I still own every ish up til 2000. I've read the latter, but it's all meh.

With Bixby Hulk, Ken Johnson always thought the Hulk character was stupid. He wanted the Jekyll/Hyde aspect mixed with King Kong. I remember hearing the red hulk angle for Bixby way before Rulk ever appeared in the comics, which wasn't until the mid-2k's. And it does fit Johnson's outlook on the character as an emotional manifestation. Arnold was offered the Hulk first and he turned it down because all it called for was to act like a gorilla...so he told Ken to look at Ferrigno since he was deaf anyway.

As for Smart Hulk, there were one or two issues in the early days, (Astonish and early 70's), but it was something Banner never wanted to take hold. It wasn't until Mantlo's run in the early 80's that Smart Hulk stayed on...and it's gawd awful. When Byrne took over, he did a fantastic revival where he got rid of Banner and made Hulk totally primal. It's to me the best stories since the Astonish/Severin days.

And then Peter David comes on board and hell comes with him. That's the "Smart" Hulk most people know, and it has nothing to do with Banner or Hulk. His insanely long run is to me, the greatest Superman/Shazam/Thor storyline never written. And you can tell the way he totally retooled everything about Hulk, he didn't like the actual character. He liked his ideas.

Smart Hulk is the worst idea, ever, because it's lazy. By taking the best of both, (immeasurable power + ultra-brilliance), it's an easy out from having to work the original concept. It makes Either Hulk or Banner, or both, not clear-cut heroes. That is also why Ang Lee's Hulk movie failed; they based everything off of David's work to the point where he was credited as creative consultant.

But the Hulk is not an id. He's not a manifestation of Banner's psyche or rage stemming from childhood abuse. Hulk is a tank, a weapon come alive created by a guy who Kirby unquestionably based off of Oppenheimer. That's why Nu Marvel has run as far the frick away from the original idea, from Planet Hulk to the new Korean hipster.

Whedon got the closest in the first Avengers, but he FUBARed it in Ultron and got lazy. It's lazy when the Hulk has no identity, cannot speak, and acts like Mighty Joe Young. Stan has said since the 60's Hulk is a cross between Jekyll/Hyde and Frankenstein. What he means is not simply "science gone crazy" or "misunderstood creature" but Victor and The Monster. Producers/editors run from that risk as it makes Banner an anti-Reed or anti-Stark. They want Bixby's Banner. Norton pulled that off perfectly, but his Hulk was Steroid Man, not a monster. That's really what Whedon got clearly in the first Avengers, (where Hulk looks like an ogre/caveman), but not in the second where the mo-cap was hellbent on having Ruffalo's ugly mug shine through so they could play Mighty Joe.

With Disney as owner it's all Action Shrek and it won't work.

[enyawd72]

I have to disagree with Hedrap regarding Ang Lee's Hulk. The film has it's problems, but to me presents the most psychologically complex portrayal of the character. The gamma experiments in Lee's film are meant to heal physical wounds, but when Banner is exposed his unique physiology causes an undesired effect. His Hulk is a manifestation of his body trying to heal an emotional injury as if it were a physical injury. I.E. the angrier he gets, the larger he becomes.
I think Eric Bana did an incredible job of displaying the repressed rage of Banner, and I like that the Hulk is completely out of his control. That was the only aspect of Ruffalo's version I dislike...the notion that he can transform at will takes a lot of the edge off.

[madmarva]

In the first 6 issues of Hulk and early Avengers issues, he's not the child-like brute that he later became in the TOS series and his own series. His personality was more like a Hyde character. He planned and was clever, but was base and crude and selfish and exhibited paranoia. During the TOS series, his personality regressed to where he spoke like Weissmuller's Tarzan. Peter David's dissociative identity disorder theory, based on the child abuse angle that I believe Bill Mantlo introduced to the character in the 80s, made sense and worked for me to explain the variety of personalities the character exhibited over the years.

Most of the early "Smart" Hulk stories lasted only for a while but he always regressed. Around issue 300, after a couple of years with Banner in control, Hulk regressed so much that he lost all semblance of humanity and was zapped into another dimension by Dr. Strange where he could do less damage. I always like the process of him getting smarter and then regressing. It was a nice change of pace. I do think David went with the smart Hulk for too long.

I enjoyed Planet Hulk for what it was. Reminded me of the Jarella stories from the 60s and 70s which are favorites of mine. While Hulk was smarter, i wasn't Banner in control to the best of my memory.

I really enjoy Ruffalo's performance as Hulk although like Hedrap I preferred the look of the character from the Avengers better than Age of Ultron. And as Dwayne pointed out, Ruffalo being able to control the change makes the character much less scary.

I would like to see Whedon direct Ruffalo in a solo Hulk film.

The TV Hulk to me was an excellent adaption of the comic to TV. As a kid, I wanted him to speak and the show to be more like the comics of the time, but in hindsight I think the choice was right. While the show certainly is dated, I think it holds up fairly well today. I can watch the episodes all the way through, which I can't do with a lot of other childhood favorites.

But when I think of the character, it's the child-like Hulk Smash version I first encountered in the comics as a kid.

[enyawd72]

But when I think of the character, it's the child-like Hulk Smash version I first encountered in the comics as a kid.

Same here.

I may have stated this elsewhere before, but I think the television series is hands down the best incarnation of the Hulk. Kenneth Johnson wisely dumped everything except what worked, and expanded on that. One of the most obvious problems with the character from the beginning, going all the way back to the original six issues, has been that Banner the nuclear physicist making bombs out in New Mexico just wasn't very interesting or likable. The TV series transformed Banner into a MUCH more sympathetic, relatable character. You care about him and what he's going through instead of being bored just waiting for the Hulk to show up. That influence even seeped it's way into the 1982 cartoon, where Banner is depicted as much more heroic than the character from the comics. The comics have always focused more heavily on the Hulk because Banner is just not interesting or compelling enough on his own, compared to say, Peter Parker.

[madmarva]

The Hulk show sort of followed the pattern set with The Adventures of Superman. Clark Kent is the key character in the show with Superman showing up two or three times and episode for the fireworks. The Incredible Hulk show has a similar pattern in most episodes. The Universal movies with Wolf-Man also has a similar pattern as did the TV series Werewolf.

[sprytel]

Before my brother passed away, he was a *huge* fan of the Smart Hulk.

He was particularly fond of this image:



The blend of the brutish, aggressive, violent side... with the whimsical pink bunny slippers (and a "Real Genius" reference to boot!)... It makes me smile every time.

[MIB41]

I loved collecting the Hulk in comics through the late 70's. That was really my period to enjoy him. But once Banner burned off his initial dose of gamma radiation and was re-radiated to save his life after being mortally wounded while fighting the Leader with a mechanical Hulk, the series seem to pale for me. The Hulk character came back more sarcastic, self-aware, and was placed (literally and figuratively) on the psych couch. So there became this struggle to gain individuality between the two minds. It was a different direction for the character which left me wanting, so I dropped the series. Ironically during the 70's, Marvel put out this concept series entitled 'What if", where they took their top tier heroes and turned their origins on their ear to offer alternate realities for one issue. They covered one with the Hulk having Banner's mind. It certainly begged to keep things the way they were.

I'm a big fan of the television series, but when you really dig into it's origins, it's amazing it came out as good as it did. Kenneth Johnson had originally cast Richard Kiel (aka "Jaws" from the Bond series) to play the Hulk. There are pictures of him dressed up. Let me tell you, that would have all but killed the credibility of the show to have a tall, skinny Hulk stomping around like King Kong. We have Johnson's son to thank. Johnson decided to show some dailies to his son for feedback and his son thought the Hulk should be allot bigger. Johnson thankfully deferred to his perspective and recast the part.

So while Johnson certainly didn't come to the table with all the best ideas that found their way into the series, I have to give him credit for displaying the wisdom to know when to listen and make necessary changes. There's no accident why he was such a celebrated talent back then. He had a good instinct for ideas and how to cultivate them into great properties. Some may not know this, but he created Jamie Sommers (the Bionic Woman). That was a series-saving storyline for the Six Million Dollar Man that really got the show righted and back on course. But I digress.

I'll always have tremendous admiration for Johnson. I believe sometimes its good not to be too close to all the subject matter you produce or direct. I think this is definitely true with Johnson and the Hulk. He was wise enough to know he didn't have the technology or budget to create a comic-based story. But he was keen enough to service the stronger elements of the concept and focus on the struggle of Bruce Banner as a drifter. Combining that with a beautiful score that helped underscore the pathos of those two characters really forever cemented the Hulk legacy that I believe, for many, is still the preferred treatment for this hero.

[samurainoir]

For fans of the Hulk TV series... there was a run of the Hulk in the early 2000's written by Creepy/Eerie writer Bruce Jones, in which he and editor Axel Alonso forged a direction that was heavily influenced by the Hulk TV show. Using the general structure of a fugitive Banner desperately trying to keep the monster at bay, and the Hulk Outs were saved for the most dramatic moments of desperation for a heightened dramatic effect. The Hulk was generally portrayed as inarticulate. There was a great deal of human drama and angst in this run, which was both it's strength and weakness. Mood, an atmosphere of heightened paranoia, and character interactions were emphasized, at the expense of Superheroic Hulk Action. It ultimately was not able to sustain itself as the overarching plot grew thin, overextended and convoluted. Many fans began referring to it as the Hulk title without the Hulk. Attempts to course correct was a bit too little, too late, although there was an interesting take on the Absorbing Man that I'm hoping someone else will pick up on someday. Alonso (currently Marvel's EIC) had been recruited from Vertigo, and brought a different sensibility to the mainline Marvel titles he edited. I think this would have been a good secondary Hulk title in the Marvel Knights line had it been a contained finite series. I don't think mainline Hulk readership at the time was ready for a "Vertigo" style Hulk despite the positive initial reaction.




For me the best part of this run were the inventive cover designs.

[samurainoir]

Folks have already mentioned Mantlo's run. While I'm not a huge fan of this run, it overlapped Secret Wars which for me was the best use of a Smart Hulk at the time. Otherwise he'd have been one more crazy wild card in an overarching crowded battle royal plot already filled with wild-cards like Magneto and the X-Men, Doom, Galactus, Molecule Man etc.







With that said, while I'm not that keen on that particular Smart Hulk era, the fallout from it was actually compelling. It created a Flowers for Algernon type tragedy for when he did revert to the Savage Hulk and was banished into the crossroads by his friend Dr Strange. It also led to one of the all time best Hulk stories which others have already cited. Bill Mantlo's swan song on the title, revealing the Hulks origins as in fact stemming from MPD due to abuse he suffered from his father Brian, and witnessing the murder of his mother at his father's hands. Apparently, Mantlo stole this plot from a Hulk story that Barry Windsor Smith was working on at the time.

[huedell]

Good thing ya picked a Saturday, Hue. You hit a big one for me.

Glad indeed I got ya on Saturday! From the results in this thread, I think it's clear the Hulk and his many iterations have hit with a lot of comic readers in these parts. And, what with my recent Johnson/Bixby re-viewings, I've found this thread's conclusions very compatibly satiating indeed!

As for Smart Hulk, there were one or two issues in the early days, (Astonish and early 70's), but it was something Banner never wanted to take hold. It wasn't until Mantlo's run in the early 80's that Smart Hulk stayed on...and it's gawd awful. When Byrne took over, he did a fantastic revival where he got rid of Banner and made Hulk totally primal. It's to me the best stories since the Astonish/Severin days.

And then Peter David comes on board and hell comes with him. That's the "Smart" Hulk most people know, and it has nothing to do with Banner or Hulk. His insanely long run is to me, the greatest Superman/Shazam/Thor storyline never written. And you can tell the way he totally retooled everything about Hulk, he didn't like the actual character. He liked his ideas.

Smart Hulk is the worst idea, ever, because it's lazy. By taking the best of both, (immeasurable power + ultra-brilliance), it's an easy out from having to work the original concept. It makes Either Hulk or Banner, or both, not clear-cut heroes.

It appears to me that David is kinda the anti-Johnson---Johnson having focused on certain aspects of the Hulk, some original, and some more with origins in the comics, but, at least these various aspects had more narrow and synergistic manifestations that made the Bixby Hulk/Banner character uniquely sympathetic.

[huedell]

I have to disagree with Hedrap regarding Ang Lee's Hulk. The film has it's problems, but to me presents the most psychologically complex portrayal of the character. The gamma experiments in Lee's film are meant to heal physical wounds, but when Banner is exposed his unique physiology causes an undesired effect. His Hulk is a manifestation of his body trying to heal an emotional injury as if it were a physical injury. I.E. the angrier he gets, the larger he becomes.
I think Eric Bana did an incredible job of displaying the repressed rage of Banner, and I like that the Hulk is completely out of his control. That was the only aspect of Ruffalo's version I dislike...the notion that he can transform at will takes a lot of the edge off.

But the reveal was cool, right?

I was with Lee's Hulk until the Nolte/father character got more involved---it was IMHO overly-psychological in that it became (to me) overly stylistic in it's visual and dramatic execution---I just lost interest because I wanted something closer to the direct Norton or Ruffalo versions where, frankly, I didn't have to think too much.

[huedell]

But when I think of the character, it's the child-like Hulk Smash version I first encountered in the comics as a kid.

My childhood nostalgia lies with the TV version which speaks volumes for my understanding of the character and my biases.

I may have stated this elsewhere before, but I think the television series is hands down the best incarnation of the Hulk. Kenneth Johnson wisely dumped everything except what worked, and expanded on that. One of the most obvious problems with the character from the beginning, going all the way back to the original six issues, has been that Banner the nuclear physicist making bombs out in New Mexico just wasn't very interesting or likable. The TV series transformed Banner into a MUCH more sympathetic, relatable character.

If I understand the character's history correctly, I think what was originally supposed to make him likable was his mentoring (and life-saving of) Rick Jones... but I don't know if that's correct, let alone how well it worked.

Anyways, I too am enamored with the TV version.

"Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."

^^^That quote says it all to me---and it appears that both Norton and Rufallo's writers have taken that to heart---"anger" as the core theme of the character.

sprytel is on to something when pointing out the value of an ironic/paradoxical "blend" being of value---it's just, what "blend" do you favor---and the "anger-restraint that fuels a hero" take seems to hit a sweet spot more often than the less disparate aggressive/fun version of the Hulk from what we've seen.

I'll always have tremendous admiration for Johnson. I believe sometimes its good not to be too close to all the subject matter you produce or direct. I think this is definitely true with Johnson and the Hulk. He was wise enough to know he didn't have the technology or budget to create a comic-based story. But he was keen enough to service the stronger elements of the concept and focus on the struggle of Bruce Banner as a drifter. Combining that with a beautiful score that helped underscore the pathos of those two characters really forever cemented the Hulk legacy that I believe, for many, is still the preferred treatment for this hero.

I'd tend to agree--- with the caveat that this thread is indicative of the most "poking around" I've done as far as examining other hypothesis.