HOLY MOLEY!!! Steve Ditko answers!!

[Mego Superboy Prime]

EXCLUSIVE!

The legend himself; Steve Ditko answers if he was influenced by the 1950's Ben Cooper Spiderman costume when he was designing Spider-man for Marvel in a letter to me and it's genius! Read it here!!

http://hero-envy.blogspot.com/2012/10/1963-ben-cooper-spider-man-halloween.html

[enyawd72]

Interesting letter. It seems defensive. To me his response reads as "Yes, but try to prove it."

Don't get me wrong. I love Ditko's work, but he's an odd duck.

[StrangeVisitor]

Well researched & generally cool blog. I'd been working on getting Spider-man Halloween costumes - and knock-offs thereof - last year but wasn't aware of the 1st BC hooded mask or some of the other info you have.

[monitor_ep]

Now that is a great find. This isn't the first time Comic Book creators have been busted for using somebody else work. Great Job.

[hedrap]

Congrats, that's an incredible get.

If I can offer a little insight, Ditko's not being defensive or hostile. It's his Objectionist talk coming out. What he's saying is "you presented a costume whose context is all inference". inference has no credibility to Objectivism.

It's actually part of a larger argument for Ditko, which is who created Spider-Man. Ditko acknowledges Kirby had first crack, drew several pages, then Stan handed Steve the book and he redesigned the character. But, Jack and Joe had created The Fly previously, who was originally called the Silver Spider, which according to Simon was an altered name created because CC Beck didn't like the "Spiderman" mock logo Simon brought him. Kirby apparently had the mock logo and claims to have brought it to Stan at some point.

Silver Spider/Spiderman was created by Simon for Beck, in 1954. Same year as your Cooper costume.

So either way, the name "Spiderman" most likely didn't start with Stan as you have two outside sources who were using it nine years earlier.

The question is how did Cooper acquire its licenses? Where were they located in the 50's? If it was in the same NYC area, then you're talking about a period where Kirby and Simon had founded Mainline on Broadway in '53/'54. Same area as Cooper.

This is also the same exact time where Simon and Kirby split up, mainly over money. Simon then went to work in advertising, while Jack went total Freelance before heading back to Timely. Both guys would have incentive to pitch Cooper, and you could make the case for either. In Simon's case, it would be an easy transition to solicit ad copy. For Jack, you have art mocks for a quick sell.

IMO, I think the latter is very possible. Jack pitched Cooper some designs, and since it was a Halloween costume, it becomes a monster spider. Jack then goes to work for Timely, then hooks up with Simon to reboot Silver Spider/Spiderman into The Fiy in '59.

Jack goes to Atlas and make monsters until the superhero boom. Stan starts asking for ideas, Jack brings up the old Spiderman but draws the newer version, which is identical to The Fly. Stan brings on Ditko and they revert back to the Kirby-Cooper design.

Also, why didn't Simon go back to the Spiderman name for Radio in '59, but instead opted to lift Silver Spider and swipe The Fly name from the movie released in '58? Then when you look at Kirby's history, he had a distinct pattern of recycling his unused ideas into other properties, such as Fourth World and Eternals.

It would also explain why Cooper would grab the Spidey license so early and his interest in trademarking "superheroes" while not creating original character designs. Cooper was undercut by Marvel's trademark, so he agreed to retool to fit the new design. When the character and genre exploded, he tried to shore up his property with the superhero trademark, which would make Marvel and DC more amiable in negotiations.

[monitor_ep]

You forgot one important part of Spider-Man. The fact that this character was first based on the Pulp Hero The Spider. Stan Lee finally had to admit that they did base part of Spider-Man on The Spider.

[clemso]

Thanks for posting, never knew about the 1950s Ben Cooper costume, with that mask you might just have a point, but at the very least, it does look like Ben Cooper ended up doing very well out of the Marvel Comics Character license. At least that's something.

[MIB41]

I think one can never wander too far from the oldest trick in the book - influence. I think heroes borrow from a little bit of everything in pop culture. Look at the evolution of influence from these heroes... Lone Ranger- Phantom- Batman. I think heroes all borrow from one another in form or another. In this case, it's pretty clear there was some earlier thinking on the webbing design for a hero than what some might have known about. But ultimately that idea was fine tuned and turned into something infinitely better. I don't think it has any sinister undercurrents. Some people like Alice Cooper. Some people like KISS. But it's likely one wouldn't have been here without the other. It's all good.

[Earth 2 Chris]

Wow, getting a response from Ditko was something else. It may have been due to the fact this was one he'd never heard before. I'm sure he gets asked the exact same questions 100 times a week.

The Spider-Man costume angle is a very interesting one. With so many "legends" surrounding the creation of our heroes (like the fabled golf game that led to the creation of the Fantastic Four...that probably never actually happened), it's interesting that this new mystery has just resurfaced and stumped a lot of the players and people in the know who are still with us. Nice work!

Chris

[Mego Superboy Prime]

Wow, getting a response from Ditko was something else. It may have been due to the fact this was one he'd never heard before. I'm sure he gets asked the exact same questions 100 times a week.

The Spider-Man costume angle is a very interesting one. With so many "legends" surrounding the creation of our heroes (like the fabled golf game that led to the creation of the Fantastic Four...that probably never actually happened), it's interesting that this new mystery has just resurfaced and stumped a lot of the players and people in the know who are still with us. Nice work!

Chris

Thanks. I just got hired by Roy Thomas to write for Alter Ego and my first article will be on this. So stay tuned for it in 2015!!

Thwipp!!!

[Brazoo]

Wow! That's really cool!

I also enjoyed seeing the costumes. I don't know almost anything about Cooper costumes or it's history, so your article was really interesting. Great job!

I do know a wee bit about Ditko and his (well, really Ayn Rand's) philosophies - and I totally agree with hedrap. I don't believe there is any coyness or hidden meaning here. He's not being defensive, he's flatly saying 'Your accusation doesn't have enough proof'.

There isn't a lot of playful subtlety in Rand-land. Ideas that that aren't practical in a physical-world sense are pointless - to his way of thinking.

I also agree with hedrap that there might be some connection to the Cooper costume that Ditko is unaware of. Based on the evidence, and testimony of witnesses, Spider-Man kinda percolated for a few years before Amazing Fantasy #15.

[Mego Superboy Prime]

Congrats, that's an incredible get.

If I can offer a little insight, Ditko's not being defensive or hostile. It's his Objectionist talk coming out. What he's saying is "you presented a costume whose context is all inference". inference has no credibility to Objectivism.

It's actually part of a larger argument for Ditko, which is who created Spider-Man. Ditko acknowledges Kirby had first crack, drew several pages, then Stan handed Steve the book and he redesigned the character. But, Jack and Joe had created The Fly previously, who was originally called the Silver Spider, which according to Simon was an altered name created because CC Beck didn't like the "Spiderman" mock logo Simon brought him. Kirby apparently had the mock logo and claims to have brought it to Stan at some point.

Silver Spider/Spiderman was created by Simon for Beck, in 1954. Same year as your Cooper costume.

So either way, the name "Spiderman" most likely didn't start with Stan as you have two outside sources who were using it nine years earlier.

The question is how did Cooper acquire its licenses? Where were they located in the 50's? If it was in the same NYC area, then you're talking about a period where Kirby and Simon had founded Mainline on Broadway in '53/'54. Same area as Cooper.

This is also the same exact time where Simon and Kirby split up, mainly over money. Simon then went to work in advertising, while Jack went total Freelance before heading back to Timely. Both guys would have incentive to pitch Cooper, and you could make the case for either. In Simon's case, it would be an easy transition to solicit ad copy. For Jack, you have art mocks for a quick sell.

IMO, I think the latter is very possible. Jack pitched Cooper some designs, and since it was a Halloween costume, it becomes a monster spider. Jack then goes to work for Timely, then hooks up with Simon to reboot Silver Spider/Spiderman into The Fiy in '59.

Jack goes to Atlas and make monsters until the superhero boom. Stan starts asking for ideas, Jack brings up the old Spiderman but draws the newer version, which is identical to The Fly. Stan brings on Ditko and they revert back to the Kirby-Cooper design.

Also, why didn't Simon go back to the Spiderman name for Radio in '59, but instead opted to lift Silver Spider and swipe The Fly name from the movie released in '58? Then when you look at Kirby's history, he had a distinct pattern of recycling his unused ideas into other properties, such as Fourth World and Eternals.

It would also explain why Cooper would grab the Spidey license so early and his interest in trademarking "superheroes" while not creating original character designs. Cooper was undercut by Marvel's trademark, so he agreed to retool to fit the new design. When the character and genre exploded, he tried to shore up his property with the superhero trademark, which would make Marvel and DC more amiable in negotiations.

Nice theory, but after all it's only a theory. Guess we'll never know.

[torgospizza]

First off, I loved your article. Good stuff. Secondly, I agree with hedrap and Brazoo about Ditko's letter. He's not being evasive--he's just making a philosophical statement in an unnecessarily difficult way, because he needs to mix with other people more or something. Of course, he'd cooly write that opinion off as ad hominem, when we're all really just trying to understand the cat.

[hedrap]

You forgot one important part of Spider-Man. The fact that this character was first based on the Pulp Hero The Spider. Stan Lee finally had to admit that they did base part of Spider-Man on The Spider.

I did some follow up on The Spider, and that seems to explain a lot. The pulp book depiction is very Shadowesque, and seems to be closer to what Kirby was after with Silver Spider/The Fly and his Spidey. But the movie serial costume for The Spider's Web/The Spider Returns - is the source for Cooper and Ditko.

[Captain]

Thanks. I just got hired by Roy Thomas to write for Alter Ego and my first article will be on this. So stay tuned for it in 2015!!

Thwipp!!!

Congratulations!