Too many villains and/or characters...

[madmarva]

Spoiler"...""...............".........".."""...... spoiler

The promise to Capt. Stacy creeping up on Peter, the relationship with Gwen and her ultimate fate all really worked well. Those who weren't familiar with Spidey lore (issue no. 122) may be caught off guard by the climax.

[hedrap]

I don't see it that way---I see it as making all this wacky superpower stuff that runs all over the saga's landscape as being more plausi9ble with the science/Oscorp tie-ins and by being more efficient to the screenwriter and making a tighter story.


Being subservient to Parker's parents is the genius of ASM and especially ASM2----it's not the same old, same old yet it espouses the very thing that Ben stated which is Spidey's credo and iconic motto.

And it's a SPOILER ladies and gents---so skip what I'm posting below here if you don't wanna be spoiled---

Parker's father knew that his creation was so powerful thaty he had to give up the one thing he really wanted: Peter. That's JUST what the whole theme of power/responsibility is asbout.... AND....there's even one MORE thing that hammers this home. Another big spoiler
, it's what by the end of ASM2, that Parker learns all too well through Gwen's fate and the final showdown with Rhino.

So, yeah, it occurs to me that by my particular view, ASM2 excels at refurbishing (or at least staying TRUE to) what Spidey has always been about---and that is: Stories with the theme of "With great power comes great responsibility."

And I prefer seeing it expounded upon the way it has been expounded upon in the Garfield series. Move Ben over a bit and let the other part of his life breathe onscreen, the Gwen/Mary Jane part... or "Leary's ghost instead of Sheen's"

So Smallville is the greatest adaptation, ever. Because that's all ASM is doing; ripping off the premise and setup of Smallville on every level.

And that's the problem; Spider-Man was conceived as a Superboy variant, but what made him not Superboy was his powers were not bestowed upon from on high. Kal-El's rocketing to Earth has always been a choice made by Jor-El. Over the years, detail has been added to how much Jor-El knew about Earth and the effects it would have on Kal-El, but the choice of Earth has never been about luck. It's always been pre-determined.

Parker was always about happenstance. By making Peter's dad responsible for Spider-Man, he becomes an even bigger derivative of Kal-El and makes him that much more unrelatable. That's not my take on Parker, that's been Stan's explanation for decades. Because Peter is a random, he has a choice to make.

It's a real no-win. If the Dad is a good guy scientist, it's Jor-El/Superboy. If he's bad, it's Vader/Luke. The change comes in how meldramatic/soap opera it's made out.

The fatal flaw to Raimi's movies was to overplay the importance of Ben & May as teachers. As pointed out, Ben never said "With Great Power..." it's a caption box.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/12/07/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-80/

And while Aunt May cared for Peter, she never parted philosophy to the kid.

Parker was created to be a teen saddled with adult responsibilities who had to guide himself. Once that happens to Superboy, he becomes Superman.

As mentioned earlier, Norman Osborne really could be the perfect villain for Peter and it works to make Peter's dad a scientist at OsCorp. But once you go past that, welcome to Smallville. Lionel/Norman, Lex/Harry, Dad/Jor-El, Kents/Ben&May, Lana/Gwen, Lois/MJ, Clark/Peter.

[thunderbolt]

So they took away the everyman/anybody aspect of Spidey's origin? That's the beauty of most of the Marvel U, the stuff happened to random folks and was primarily accidental, ala the FF, Thor,Dr. Strange, Hulk, Iron Man, Spidey and DD. When you take that out of the premise it instantly makes it unrelatable to the reader.

[madmarva]

It's the Batmanization of super hero origins. It's been going on since the 1990s at DC. GL Emerald Dawn introduced the idea that Hal Jordan's dad died in plane crash and also made Hal a drunk. A dude in the drunk tank is the most worthy of possessing one of the most powerful devices in the universe? Those bits of tragedy weren't needed. It didn't make Hal a better hero or character.

Similarly, when DC brought back Barry Allen as Flash, the story introduced the idea that his mom was murdered and his dad went to jail for it. It wasn't enough that Barry had a strong enough sense of right and wrong and justice that when he accidentally received incredible powers that he decided to use them for the greater good. No, he had to have a tragedy to resolve.

[huedell]

So Smallville is the greatest adaptation, ever. Because that's all ASM is doing; ripping off the premise and setup of Smallville on every level..

Then I have to applaud Webb because I never liked Smallville. Frankly, I didn't even like ASM1.

Parker was always about happenstance. By making Peter's dad responsible for Spider-Man, he becomes an even bigger derivative of Kal-El and makes him that much more unrelatable. That's not my take on Parker, that's been Stan's explanation for decades. Because Peter is a random, he has a choice to make.

As mentioned earlier, Norman Osborne really could be the perfect villain for Peter and it works to make Peter's dad a scientist at OsCorp. But once you go past that, welcome to Smallville. Lionel/Norman, Lex/Harry, Dad/Jor-El, Kents/Ben&May, Lana/Gwen, Lois/MJ, Clark/Peter.

Hmmm. I need more than "They're copying Smallville" to repulse me. It makes more sense that a "They're copying Raimi's films" would actually be the thing that'd turn me off for sure.

I can appreciate your point of that there's more value when Parker is given a "choice" rather than him following a legacy his father started... but Parker doesn't find out about that until he gets halfway through the second movie, and I feel that Parker is still such a vulnerable character that it can still work as a "choice" thing,, albeit not so pure as before.

A lot of life is about "choices"---"free will" and all of that, if handled correctly, I can't really see how that part of the character would be too minimized for my tastes, no matter what Peter's past consisted of.

[hedrap]

Then I have to applaud Webb because I never liked Smallville. Frankly, I didn't even like ASM1.


Hmmm. I need more than "They're copying Smallville" to repulse me. It makes more sense that a "They're copying Raimi's films" would actually be the thing that'd turn me off for sure.

I can appreciate your point of that there's more value when Parker is given a "choice" rather than him following a legacy his father started... but Parker doesn't find out about that until he gets halfway through the second movie, and I feel that Parker is still such a vulnerable character that it can still work as a "choice" thing,, albeit not so pure as before.

A lot of life is about "choices"---"free will" and all of that, if handled correctly, I can't really see how that part of the character would be too minimized for my tastes, no matter what Peter's past consisted of.

I'm not trying to get you to dislike the movie. I just hate origin revisions. The writers today are nowhere near as good as the Silver Age crew because the Silver guys did not spend a lifetime reading comics, they had other interests. People assumed every comic book that's been around for decades were the only comics being produced when that's far from the truth. So without that consideration, we lose sight as to why Spidey survived while all the other Superman derivatives, didn't. I mean, Hulk's history proves it wasn't a simple case of the right design. It was the character dynamics.

So a movie like ASM really irks me, just as Ang Lee's Hulk did, because they trash the dynamics that work in favor of soap opera crap and that's what Parker's dad is. Adding that element, decades after what's been established, is exactly how soap operas are written. And it's not done to serve the character, but to prolong the story. Original Sin is the ultimate example of soap opera hackery. It's not character growth, it's melodrama that keeps the characters in one perpetual state.

The last solid generation of comic writers was the Moore/Byrne/Miller era, and after that we've only had a few standouts like Ellis, Busiek and Waid.