All Star Batman gets the treatment it so richly deserves.

[thunderbolt]

Go here.

http://www.i-mockery.com/comics/longbox7/

Never noticed how much Miller beats you over the head with Grayson's age.

[The Bat]

Can't say I disagree with the Man's opinion(Miller's completely lost His Mind)....but Man, can Jim Lee DRAW!!

[huedell]

Holy moley---during the WOLVERINE discussion in the Cyclops thread I was thinking
about the BATMAN characters' sucesses over the years with hardcore BATMAN fans
and how its quite possible WOLVERINE will have that opportunity of success with
hardcore WOLVERINE fans because of his immense popularity and therefore his potential
for many takes on that uber-classic character, at least some of which that will hit
a sweet spot with hardcore WOLVERINE fans--if only due to the "odds" involved

I specifically thought about Miller's DARK KNIGHT story (as well as the KILLING JOKE
by another writer, etc.) and was thinking how cherished DK is by the hardcore
BATMAN fans----then I read that article t-bolt just linked us to...

Its amazing that the guys' recent BATMAN work can be so universally panned by
hardcore BATMAN fans-

---I mean, we've seen something simillar with LUCAS/STAR WARS over the years, but its
still surprising to me regardless.

[Earth 2 Chris]

As a diehard Batman fan, I gotta say this. I think in some ways The Dark Knight was the WORST thing that ever happened to Batman. The work itself is fantastic. It's revolutionary, innovative, cutting-edge, all the superlatives that have been lauded at it, it deserves. BUT, it made lesser talents see Batman as a complete non-heoric psycho, and that has stuck with the character in the past 22 years. Even Miller was unable (or unwilling) to recapture his extreme-but-still-sane characterization in DK2 and All-Star Batman. Very few have dared to write a Batman that is haunted but not completely damaged by his parent's death. It's much easier to write Batman as the little boy out to beat thugs to death since mommy and daddy died.

Batman was a very well-fleshed out character before Miller came around. Writers like O'Neil, Wein and Englehart saw to that. Miller took some of those ideas to more extreme ends, but it still felt "right". The same can't be said for most who followed in his footsteps and tried to ape "his" Batman.

Chris

[The Toyroom]

Its amazing that the guys' recent BATMAN work can be so universally panned by
hardcore BATMAN fans-

I think as fans we want to like it because it's Frank Miller and he's done some ground-breaking stuff with the aforementioned "Dark Knight" as well as runs on "Daredevil" and his own "Sin City"...

...but then when you read it ("All-Star Bats"), as well as his "Dark Knight" sequel a few years back, you realize that Miller has turned into a hack who is in it for the quick buck that DC throws at him even though he's totally degrading the characters.

He's the director on the upcoming "The Spirit" film. Once again, because it's Miller on The Spirit (a looong time ago it seemed he might be the modern day successor to Will Eisner) I want it to be a good film but I have major doubts.

[huedell]

The Toyroom wrote:

I think as fans we want to like it because it's Frank Miller

I hope so. Personally, I think it'd be unfortunate if it were otherwise. Unwarranted,
unnecessary bad vibes if it were otherwise.

Also...

Nothing wrong with hardcore fans being tough critics---that's their perogative---
and, really, in some ways, you could say its EXPECTED of them. If people that
are such potent fans can't be great critics then it takes away the most valued kind
of objectivity I would think. In an ideal world---companies should really take note of
this small, but dedicated (and educated) group---they'd be fools not to use that
resource for a direction for a given franchise. (Heh, I know I set you up with that last line!)

[huedell]

EArth 2 Chris wrote:

I think in some ways The Dark Knight was the WORST thing that ever happened to Batman.

...and to the comic industry in general too...yeah...you can take that perspective...
and I agree 100% But just like anything else, you can't make an omelette without
breaking a few eggs. And of course I'm stating the obvious but DK broke needed ground.
(And Chris---I know you recognize this...but I just wanted to add...)
The fact that others abused that mentality...its just like any other fad that gets
run into the ground....

[argent007]

I read the subject of this thread and thought the good news was that this series was going to be cancelled mid-"story" arc...

No such luck.

[Flynne]

Hey - Batman's edgy! Readers like edgy, right? But it can't be edgy unless it's totally on the edge. So let's see, what can we have Batman do that's edgy... how about being a total tool and have the emotional maturity of a 12 year old (pun intended). Crush and kill with the Bat-mo-bile - that almost rhymes! And Superman sucks because he's suck a square not abducting and torturing small children - screw him! Then Black Canary can beat the s**t out of an entire bar and rob them while they are unconscious. Yeah, kick-a** anti-heroes! Let's give them some guns and knives so they can shoot and stab. Next issue I bet Catwoman will show up as a high dollar prostitute to snog Bruce Wayne, then he'll beat the crap out of her instead of tipping her for Greek. Then Superman will fall under the rapture of "Batman" just like the Black Canary, and then rape Wonder Woman while dressing her like a Catholic Schoolgirl, before melting a busload of Nuns with his heat vision! Woohoo!!! "I'm the G******d Superman!" Awesome!!!

Which is worse - the idiot who wrote it or the idiot who published it? It's like Miller heard the term "Bat-S**t insane" and thought "That'd make a good story arc..." Someone either needs an editor, or should stop reading his own press, or both. It really should be called "All-S**t Batman", because that's what it is. When I read "DK2" I thought "Well, it can't get much worse than this." Oh, me of little faith...

[Earth 2 Chris]

Bob Schreck is the editor of All-Star Bats. When he was the editor of the main Bat-titles he let his writers nearly ruin the character of the in-continuity DCU Batman, so at least he's off in his own corner now. I think his philosophy on editing is "bring in the big names and let them do whatever they want". That's pretty much the philosophy of ANY comic edtior now. The days of character stewards like Julius Schwartz who would not allow the characers to be maligned by a writer's wim are long gone.

Chris

[Cosmicman]

As a diehard Batman fan, I gotta say this. I think in some ways The Dark Knight was the WORST thing that ever happened to Batman. The work itself is fantastic. It's revolutionary, innovative, cutting-edge, all the superlatives that have been lauded at it, it deserves. BUT, it made lesser talents see Batman as a complete non-heoric psycho, and that has stuck with the character in the past 22 years. Even Miller was unable (or unwilling) to recapture his extreme-but-still-sane characterization in DK2 and All-Star Batman. Very few have dared to write a Batman that is haunted but not completely damaged by his parent's death. It's much easier to write Batman as the little boy out to beat thugs to death since mommy and daddy died.

Batman was a very well-fleshed out character before Miller came around. Writers like O'Neil, Wein and Englehart saw to that. Miller took some of those ideas to more extreme ends, but it still felt "right". The same can't be said for most who followed in his footsteps and tried to ape "his" Batman.

Chris

100% agreed!

[The Bat]

As a diehard Batman fan, I gotta say this. I think in some ways The Dark Knight was the WORST thing that ever happened to Batman. The work itself is fantastic. It's revolutionary, innovative, cutting-edge, all the superlatives that have been lauded at it, it deserves. BUT, it made lesser talents see Batman as a complete non-heoric psycho, and that has stuck with the character in the past 22 years. Even Miller was unable (or unwilling) to recapture his extreme-but-still-sane characterization in DK2 and All-Star Batman. Very few have dared to write a Batman that is haunted but not completely damaged by his parent's death. It's much easier to write Batman as the little boy out to beat thugs to death since mommy and daddy died.

Batman was a very well-fleshed out character before Miller came around. Writers like O'Neil, Wein and Englehart saw to that. Miller took some of those ideas to more extreme ends, but it still felt "right". The same can't be said for most who followed in his footsteps and tried to ape "his" Batman.

Chris

I definately agree with a lot of what You said Chris...I don't know if I'd go so far as to say, TDKR was WORST thing that ever happened to Batman. Because I love the Story so much...it was ground breaking, and definately "re-defined" the Character...He was without a dought, a hardened, Meaner BATMAN(as Gotham & the World around Him had become)...but still felt like the Batman I know and LOVE!
And Your right...other Writers who tried to Ape Millers Batman...have not done justice to the Character.
But with a Character that's been around as long as Batman, sometimes someone needs to shake things up! Thank God, O'Neil & Adams came along in the 70's...to bring the Batman Comics back from the Campyness being Aped from the 60's TV Show!

[thunderbolt]

Wasn't Joel Schumacher the worst thing to happen to Batman?

[The Toyroom]

^ Yeah "bat-nipples" ranks pretty high on the "bat-crap" list...

[kingdom warrior]

Sad part is that DC and Miller are laughing all the way to the Bank because as crappy as the book is......Jim Lee is still rocking the book so even if it's not readable for Lee's Fans it's a pretty picture book and Fanboys are still buying the book. What makes me laugh is after reviewing the first book the writer went back to review the other issues...I think Miller in the end is having a laugh at that...Here's my crap smell it over and over.....