Jerry Ordway and the Current State of the Industry

[ctc]

>As for House styles, I totally despise when Marvel or DC do this although I think Marvel is far more guilty of this than DC.

Well.... they both do it. Marvel has always been pretty unabashed about it; hence the Pseudo-Kirby-esque Sinott/Trimpe/Romita look of the 70's, the weird minimalist skritchy Miller/whoever the guy who did X-Men for a while style of the 80's, and the 90's.... well.... DC did the same though, with their pop art psychedelia Oksner/Cadry style in the 60's, the moody Simonson/Aparo 70's, the bright, open Bolland/Perez 80's (hell; even Giffen's early stuff borrows from the Perez look!) and then the 90's.

I think the biggest problem is that the house style wasn't institutionalized right away. Both companies put out enough variety of material.... up until the late 70's.... that you COULDN'T use one style. (Romance books a'la Kirby are indeed a thing to see.) But you had standardized looks; probably a combination of intent ("get me ten more guys who draw just like this!") and accident. (Like when the same editor picks half your new artists; it's no coincidence if they all look the same.) By the superhero boom of the mid 80's you had a MUCH more narrow definition of what a comic book was, and accordingly a narrowing of what was "good" art. This set the seeds for the designer comics thing, which anyone who lived through the 90's is familiar with.

>McFarlane's style of drawing came into Vogue everyone and their mother copied it and Marvel ran with it soon you had every Hack monkey imitating that freeking ugly itchy scratchy style, just to find work.

Actually; Jim Lee was the guy who got cloned the most, but the principle is sound.

>when you compromise your work to fit a house style, you create more problems in the industry.

There's more to it than just that though. I think the fans need to take some of the blame too. If folks didn't BUY Jim Lee clones they wouldn't have MADE Jim Lee clones. The whole industry got caught up in it; even companies that had NO REASON publishing superhero stuff. And it worked, for a while. Thing is, EVERYTHING eventually gets dull, and when folks lost interest in the Image style heroes there was nothing else for them. So they left in droves. (The ones who weren't speculators scared off by the "ten variant holo foil lazer ashcan chocolatey wonderful covers!" thing.) But by then actual readers were the minority.

>I always was more into Independent comics (NOT IMAGE) rthat had their own style not following whatever was hot.

Me too. That's why I've been loving the last decade or so. With the Big Two-ish out of the way, and comics no longer sequestered to comic shops alone there's been a ton of great stuff made readily available.

>I feel like I'm reliving the 90's again

They're trying, but they haven't lured the speculators back. Or the readers. Or anybody but the diehards. All they need though is a big story about how valuable back issues of someone getting a new series is, and it's the 80's again!

*sigh* I still remember the CNN story on the Punisher that started the mid 80's boom.

>crap set me back 9 bucks for 4 comics!!! what a freeking ripoff!!! SMH!! That's still the real problem with comics!!!!

Agreed. It'll be tough overcoming this now 'cos the current generation of comic fans grew up reading the Japanese stuff; where you'd get 200+ pages of story for $5. Digital COULD be a way of bringing costs down, but they seem reluctant to loosen the purse strings on it. (I've been eyeballing some newer 2000AD stuff digital; but it isn't really any cheaper than buying an actual print copy.) Cheaper copies are a neccesity 'cos you need to build a fan base. A broad fan base; and you can only do that by luring in people who'd normally never think to read your stuff. And the way you do that; impulse buy.

Don C.

[kingdom warrior]

Romita Jr. is a good artist you don't hang around the biz that long just because of who your Dad was. For me it was always who inked him.

When Al Williamson was inking him that was really the first time his art appealed to me. Williamson knew how to add dark and lights to his work that for me made it appealing. I have not really seen any of his newer work to have an opinion on it.


As for House styles, I totally despise when Marvel or DC do this although I think Marvel is far more guilty of this than DC.
When all those future Image numb nuts first appeared at Marvel and McFarlane's style of drawing came into Vogue everyone and their mother copied it and Marvel ran with it soon you had every Hack monkey imitating that freeking ugly itchy scratchy style, just to find work. Sorry when you compromise your work to fit a house style, you create more problems in the industry.

That's why you had sooooooooo many Garbage art in the 90's and everyone creating a glut in the industry with too many books and everyone looking like each other EXCEPT the true innovators of the industry.

That's why, I always was more into Independent comics (NOT IMAGE) rthat had their own style not following whatever was hot.
It comes as no surprise,that the industry has gone in the direction it has. I feel like I'm reliving the 90's again especially with Jim Lee at DC with Dan Dildo.
I just went to my local comic shop to see what was happening and was lost looking at stuff that I just found a bit boring.
I ended up buying four comics, The New Dollar Bill comic by Len Wein and Steve Rude, a Batman comic liked the way Joker was drawn artist was Mico Suayan athen I went into the dollar Bin and Got a Avengers drawn by Walt Simonson inked by Scott Hanna and a Secret Avengers Cover by Arthur Adams ....crap set me back 9 bucks for 4 comics!!! what a freeking ripoff!!! SMH!! That's still the real problem with comics!!!!

end rant

Steve.

[CrimsonGhost]

I know we all complain about how lousy Marvel and DC have become...but we all need to DO SOMETHING about it. Boycott them...don't buy their crap anymore.

Done and done.

Well, technically, I stopped reading Marvel when Quesada took over. I stopped DC around the time of Final Crisis, 52, etc. Truth is, it doesn't matter to them. I'm not who they are trying to appeal to anymore. They want the video game crowd, the movie crowd, the people who are interested in the characters from other media that are now curious about the comics. I doubt they can do anything to get me interested again, and they know that. But they also know that a lot of diehards will buy comics they dislike because they have to "collect 'em all."

I buy Walking Dead. That's it. Much like my toy buying preferences, I like to buy old comics from the 70's and 80's.

[Earth 2 Chris]

I feel Romita Jr. IS a good artist, but he has become a slave to a very unappealing style. Just like Keith Giffen. I really liked his early 80s stuff, but I haven't been able to stomach anything that man draws since then.

Chris

[ctc]

>basically they signed someone that could be a star player and pretty much benched him just so he wouldn't play for another team

Yeah.... I think he might have grounds to fight on those lines; but the sad thing is, that's the contract he agreed to. More boning the talent.

>You'd think Dark Horse or someone would use them.

Maybe they're trapped in exclusive contrats as well? I'd love to see some of these guys produce their own stuff; just to see what's been perkolating in there all these years. 'Course I'm thinking some of the older guys were journeymen at heart. They had little to no desire producing their own stuff, but were content working with the established characters. It was more about the doing than what they were doing.

Which isn't a shot; creating something whole cloth is a completely different set of skills, and attitude. Some folks would rather concentrate on the nuts and bolts of the artistry itself instead of all the prep and plan. (And sometimes guys move on and produce their own stuff whan they probably shouldn't, and you end up with nicely done but ultimately empty clones of other characters.)

>he got worse as he got older

You see that fairly often, probably 'cos:

>over the years hes gotten a "I dont care" attitude towards his work

THAT crops up a lot. Probably a combination of the blahs from being told what to do mixed in with general burnout. You can only draw Spider-Man SO MANY times for SO MANY years under the pressure of deadlines and oversight before it stops being fun.

>Ordway's artwork is NOT "Old Fashioned".

Well.... it's not the current style, and the Big Two-ish have a habit of cultivating house styles. Once it's deemed that a new one is the thing to do, anyone who doesn't fit is usually moved along. I'm a big believer of art matching story and that no style ever really becomes invalid; but that's me. They've been playing this game for a while and I don't see it changing any time soon. I suspect it's one of the problems they've had with producing a greater variety of comics; it's tough to do a convincing romance book when everybody's a grimmacing steroid queen.

Don C.

[Figuremod73]

I actually think Romita Jr is a really good artist BUT I think over the years hes gotten a "I dont care" attitude towards his work.

It would be nice to see Zeck and Trimpe steadily busy again.

[madmarva]

I'd love to see Trimpe do a war comic.

[thunderbolt]

its ridiculous that guys like Ordway, Zeck and Trimpe aren't working. You'd think Dark Horse or someone would use them. Trimpe would be perfect for a retro BPRD style book set in the 60's to 70's.

[Random Axe]

^^^THe thing with Romita is he got worse as he got older. His early stuff was pretty decent, not groundbreaking. The sad part is he has a nice sense of design and flow to a comic page, but has trouble filling the boxes with good artwork and faces. He went with that tiny line work a while back and has stuck with it. When he draws with a sense of line weight and shadow, he's really good. The following is a good example of what he can do.





I'll tell you someone I really miss and thing got the shaft a while back since I haven't seen a book form him in way over a decade...Mike Zeck. His Punisher was terrific and his work on Spider-Man with Kraven's Last Hunt is classic.

[Blue Meanie]

It's been a while since I posted...but reading this got me a little po'd. Let's just face fact...Marvel and DC have NO CLUE as to what they are doing anymore. They can't find ANY TALENT whatsoever...and now they decide to blackball/fire yet another artist that can draw circles around ANY one of those twits they have on their books??!!?? Really??!!?? Not only is Jerry Ordway a first rate inker/penciler...but he can write as well. Not many can do all three of those jobs well these days. I can honestly say I don't collect titles anymore from Marvel or DC...I strictly pick up books if they have the following artists attached to them:

Jim Starlin
George Perez
Mike Grell
Jerry Ordway
Alan Davis

That's it. And besides Davis...there is basically not a whole lot out there anymore. Alan Davis is probably the only one out there that does a regular book anymore. I know Perez does Worlds Finest...but the book is basically split between 2 artists. I know we all complain about how lousy Marvel and DC have become...but we all need to DO SOMETHING about it. Boycott them...don't buy their crap anymore. BTW, this isn't the first or last time that one of the "Big 2" have done this. I remember reading this blog/article about Herb Trimpe...Marvel literally DESTROYED this man's confidence in doing just about anything. Here's the blog/journal entries/article that was posted on line:

http://www.hulklibrary.com/hulk/info/news-herbtrimpefired.asp

Jerry Ordway is one of the few artists/writers that I have yet to meet...but I have dealt with him on Ebay. Here's some Jerry Ordway Pre-lim art:






His pre-lim art is a BILLION times better than any of the new "Hot" artists out there. It's absolutely pathetic when you have Bean Counters running the "Big 2". I don't care what any of them say...sales have got to be down. I know a lot of people that have cancelled all of their DC titles. Just PATHETIC.

One last thing...does anyone know how Romita Jr. still has a job in comics??!!?? If you want to talk about someone that can't draw...put it this way, his dad in his 70's draws circles around him.

[Earth 2 Chris]

^Preach on brutha!!! You said it.

Chris

[kingdom warrior]

Ordway's artwork is NOT "Old Fashioned". He's an Illustrator who can draw from off the top of his head. UNLIKE a lot of the newbies who rely on tracing off Photographs to get a photo realistic look....that sadly Alex Ross and a few others made popular.......

It was nice once upon a time when an artist made up his world with his artistic skills. It didn't matter if the art was accurate but was convincing and strong. Too many artist want to snap a pic then light box it in....takes away the magic of entering another world through the eyes of the artist.

[The Toyroom]

All this talk about deadlines and page rates may be missing the point....Bottom line is DC resigned Ordway to an "exclusive" contract but didn't follow through with finding him consistent gigs. So basically they signed someone that could be a star player and pretty much benched him just so he wouldn't play for another team instead of utilizing the talent that they apparently wanted to hold on and deemed somewhat valuable ( i.e. the exclusive contract) in order to help sell and promote their books. Meanwhile, guys without contracts were hired as freelancers and given a crack at the New 52 titles. When he was given work it was as a pinch hitter to help other guys out with their deadlines.

And another thing to keep in mind is even if you or DC think his art may seem old-fashioned, he also has writing and inking in his wheelhouse to contribute.

[ctc]

>with deadline oriented work, the deadline becomes the most important item

I don't think that's the problem, considering how late a lot of the newer guys are.

>Are the younger guys working cheaper?

That's a good question. After the Image thing in the 90's pay rates got astronomical (compared to what they were) and I kinda suspect that trend has continued. Hence why comics are so pricey; even the digital ones. There's a LOT more overhead.... with pay rates for the producers and the higher quality print and paper.... than there was way back when. So, rather than boost exposure by making the digital ones more of an impule buy, they gotta wring as much profit as they can from everything.

>I think it speaks worse of the industry that it's become so capricious that now great, reliable talent can make the "elder statesman" position that guys like Kirby or Kane or Swan could as the companies pursue trends and "flavor of the month

What's interesting there is that all the guys you mention got boned by the Big Two-ish at some point. (Sometimes more than once.) It's not a new phenomenon; as a matter of fact, screwing over the talent has been a staple of mainstream comics almost from the get go. Sadly for guys like Ordway, they got in during those times and it's tough to renegotiate afterwards. Like how he can't produce his own stuff, even though DC isn't using him for anything. THAT'S something I think should be redressed. That way he could do his own stuff, however and whenever he saw fit; slap it on the web.... aaannnnndddd get ignored by the oldster fans who won't read any of them newfangled digital whoozits. Or not. The internets don't know or care how old you are; just how appealing your product is.

Don C.

[knight errant00]

I was never a big fan of Ordway's, but I do think it's lousy how he' been treated, and I think it speaks worse of the industry that it's become so capricious that now great, reliable talent can make the "elder statesman" position that guys like Kirby or Kane or Swan could as the companies pursue trends and "flavor of the month." I was shocked hers ago to learn that Norm Breyfogle -- one of my all-time favorite Batman artists -- wasn't working because no one would hire him, with essentially the same story Ordway's telling now. The industry wants rock stars now, not greats.