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^They don't get what's wrong because they are still making money. And they aren't convinced if they stop this nonsense they'll make more.
Chris
Chris
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>They don't get what's wrong because they are still making money.
That's EXACTLY the issue.... which is why it bothers me so much when folks take the audience out of the equation. Marvel and DC DON'T do things to cheese off the readers, no matter how much it may feel like they do. They make great efforts to pander. 'Course that's part of the problem since it means chasing whatever the current trend is. Remember the 80's? Ninjas ninjas ninjas.... But people buy the stuff, so they keep making it. Reboots may not make sense from a story/writing perspective, but they're apparently good for business. Otherwise we wouldn't get them every year or two.
So we should be asking what the appeal is; and not in a condescending way. Who is their audience, and what do they get from stuff like this? I'm kinda thinking there's a burgeoning speculator group growing again and that's why the "special issues" still get a boost.
>And they aren't convinced if they stop this nonsense they'll make more.
That's trickier, but you're right. The key to making a super-hit is to CREATE the trend, not just follow it. But figuring out what the next big thing is takes a lot of trial and error.... or luck. And the Big Two....er.... However Many There Are haven't left themselves a lot of leeway to experiment with. The books are too expensive for impule buys, so people are reluctant to try something different. Even if they were cheaper, the core fans seem interested mostly in the same old anyhoo. Something new and/or different would be a hard sell. 'Course, it could bring in NEW fans, which would be awesome; but there's too much conceptual baggage attached to comics, especially the superhero stuff. Just as those on the inside of fandom have their expectations those on the outside have 'em too; and if they felt anything there would appeal to them they would have walked into a comic shop years ago and had a boo.
Digital COULD help here, but it seems like the superhero guys see it as an extension of the usual. Marvel would be well served to do something like a monthly digital book, selling for $1 and featuring some of their lesser characters. Maybe an anthology; so folks get exposed to different things. Or maybe *gasp* a FREE webcomic.... newspaper style, single page, whatever. Something to give some exposure to characters who aren't part of the X-Men or Avengers. (ARE there characters who aren't part of the X-Men or Avengers anymore?) It also gives non-fans a chance to read stuff with minimal risk, and without having to brave a trip to the comic shop. Not too many folks would shell out $4 a month for a Squirrel Girl comic, but they might spend a buck.... or a few minutes a week reading an online one. And it might snag you some readers who'd normally be put off by the "GRRR!!! ANGRY!!!" style of writing, or "GRRR!!!! Angsty!!!!" style, or the overwhelming Wolverine appearances. Readers who might be tempted to try one of your other books.... especially if you have a variety of other books to offer.
If you want to change the books, you HAVE to change the audience. New ideas will only take root if there's an audience for them. Which there IS.... the breadth and depth of indie/foreign/online comics shows there's an audience for durned near anything these days.... but you've got to get your material to them.
>I think the talent pool has become saturated
The word you want is "inbred."
>there really needs to be a company to come along with a new approach
There was; Shonen Jump, and even if you hate the Japanese stuff (which a lot of folks here seem to) it proves that all you guys constantly calling shennanegains on Marvel and DC are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! They did something different, something not subject to all the nonsense the superhero books suffer from, and for a decade they won. They built up a new audience, got kids reading comics again, and returned the focus to the story itself and not the collectability of this special issue or the popularity of the cartoonist. (All with no Wolverine appearances!) Those principles could be applied to the superheroes, and one might expect similar results; but Marvel and DC are way too set in their ways. A problem facilitated by a core fan base likewise set in their ways. ("It's digital AND black and white! No way!")
Don C.Comment
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The numbers have got to be shrinking, I can't be the only one that quit floppies over the past few years. The county I live in has gone from 5 stores down to soon to be one in the last 5 years, so that just can't be a good sign for the industry as a whole. They show no signs of getting into new markets or making the 5 minute reads affordable as downloads or printed versions. I think at this point Warner and Disney are mostly interested in the characters for movies and merchandising and don't really seem interested in getting the next generation of fans locked in.You must try to generate happiness within yourself. If you aren't happy in one place, chances are you won't be happy anyplace. -Ernie BanksComment
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>The numbers have got to be shrinking
I think the last time the numbers got crunched they were holding steady. You're still gonna get new people in; big budget movies that are seen by millions can do that. ('Course, in that case you'd expect a lot more than a few thousand readers....) And I don't think all that many people actually leave. Sure, they rant and rave about the poor quality of the books.... every month; which means a lot of 'em are still picking up said books. I saw it all the time back in the 90's at the comic shop.
>The county I live in has gone from 5 stores down to soon to be one in the last 5 years, so that just can't be a good sign for the industry as a whole.
It's not, but I think there's been some bloat for a while. In the 90's Windsor had no less than six comic shops.... servicing around 300 fans. That's a lot. Most of those folks were speculators. I really believe it was the collapse of the speculator market that caused the collapse of the N. American comic scene. Since everyone bought multiple copies of everything, you could support more stores than you'd think neccessary. When one sold out of "Bludddeathbladewar #0 ashcan" you'd run to another for six more copies.
The current fans get their stuff at a bookstore. A regular bookstore. I think that's one reason the superhero fans don't realize just how much stuff is out there these days: they're going to the comic shop for books.... very specific books from specific companies. So they never venture down the "manga" or "graphic novel" sections of a regular bookstore. Or check out any web comic hubs, or online print on demand sites....
>They show no signs of getting into new markets or making the 5 minute reads affordable as downloads or printed versions.
Yeah.... that seems to be more inertia as well. And maybe aarogance. Complacency? The feeling that everything'll reset itself eventually, like it did in the 80's?
>I think at this point Warner and Disney are mostly interested in the characters for movies and merchandising and don't really seem interested in getting the next generation of fans locked in.
DEFINITELY; although they no doubt feel the next generation of fans will be movie and tv fans. The comics don't matter 'cos they don't pull in nearly as much money as the movies and toys, and the folks making the actual decisions are way far removed from the consequences of those decisions. That's the problem with becoming part of a big corporate entity.
Don C.Last edited by ctc; Jul 11, '12, 4:49 AM.Comment
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I think one reason the relaunches and reboots do well initially is the optimism at the core of most fans. I think readers really do want to read a good Superman or Spider-Man book, so when there is a relaunch or a major change in direction or even a creator change, I think we are prone to test the waters in hopes that it'll be good. This buying habit has trained the publishers to switch gears in hopes to generate some juice. The publishers don't have any more of a clue than fans or speculators what is going to be a true hit,
I'm sure there is some financial aspect to the speculation of testing out a new series or relaunch, but I think most longtime readers know that 99 percent of the time value of new comics actually go way down before ever going up, if ever. No reader is going to buy a 2-year-old single issue for $4 when he can buy a hardback or trade collection of the whole story for $20 or less.
I really do think the price point on digital should be a dollar. Maybe instead of selling the whole issue for $2.99 and $3.99, maybe it should be half for $1. Half off an issue could go up day and date with the print version for $1 with the other half going up two weeks later. The publisher would still be making a good bit more percentage-wise on the digital over the floppy at the lower price because it doesn't have to be printed or shipped or distributed. A majority of the middle men are cut out. Such a move still protects the direct market because the whole story doesn't come out at once and the collector is going to want the issue to own, not just to read.
Comics companies need to capture or recapture readers not try to make them collectors.Last edited by madmarva; Jul 11, '12, 7:34 AM.Comment
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I'm sick of all the reboots.
I used to read 33 titles, now I'm down to four. I might just go all the way down to zero if this keeps up..
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"When things are at their darkest, it's a brave man that can kick back and party."Comment
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^ this is why I only read Silver and bronze dogear/reprints. Its just to frustrating to bother when Im perfectly happy with the volume and quality of the old material.
Comics use to be a well crafted art form (for the most part). There was alot of time and dedication put into the books. Even low selling or overlooked series seem better than most of the top sellers now.
When I do pick up something new its usually IDW or Dark Horse.Comment
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Hickman's Fantastic Four was my favourite marvel Title over the last few years. I loved how he wrote the future foundation kids and as a scientist and Johnny's best friend, Peter did end up being a perfect fit for what was happening in the title. I even thought Ben spending more time with the New Avengers worked very organically... As the emphasis on scientific exploration and educating the kids took priority. From a character standpoint it makes sense that he'd feel shuffled off to the side, particularly after Johnny died. Of course we recently got to see what a disaster it turns out to be when you let Johnny teach a class of super geniuses.
I'm actually a little bit disappointed that FF is ending, but I would rather it go out on a high note rather than let it fizzle once a new creative steps in. Although I would imagine Hickman might likely follow up on the threads he introduced in Fantastic Four and Secret Warriors once he takes over Avengers. I actually like the Mission Impossible rotating team idea since Hickman has proven to be adept at handling a cast of thousands.
Last edited by samurainoir; Jul 11, '12, 11:46 AM.Comment
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