The Flash of Earth 2

[Cosmicman]

Also, I have been finding this new Wolverine Hawkman interesting. I don't consider him thee Hawkman in my mind. I pretend it's some TV movie gone wrong and it helps me to read it but being a Hawkman fan I have to read it and I like it even though by putting metal inside Hawkman's body it officially is a rip off of Wolverine Nth Metal or Adamantium metal.......same thing except ones DC Nth (magic) and the other is Marvel Adamantium (indestructible science).


Well, Marvel Comics is still here! I'm glad they decided to create another universe (the Ultimate Universe) then ruin the charters with the infamous "Reboot". That way I can stick with the classics and the little new come readers can have their Ultimate comics. blah.....

I still get all my original Avengers books plus Captain American and Ironman. I am liking the Defenders book despite it missing the GREEN Hulk, Valkyrie, Nighthawk, Hellcat and my favorite, Damion, the Son of Satan.
I don't get the whole General Ross and Betty Ross as the Red Hulk and She hulk. All these colored Hulks are getting as bad as all these Green Lantern rings.

[PNGwynne]

DiDio has definitely had stars in his eyes, taking any pitch by any Hollywood type and greenlighting it despite what it did to the characters.

I've said it before, but there are no caretakers left in comics. Editors used to be considered stewards of the character. Mort Wesinger was apparently a tyrant, but while he innovated new concepts in the Superman mythos, he didn't totally ignore what was established. Same for Julius Schrwartz that followed him. Even the Byrne reboot had a semblance to the basic core of Superman.

Now it's whatever it takes to make a buck. Change up this, change that, hire this guy (he's hot, right?) and let them do whatever they want as long as their name is on the book and it sells. DC turned down Frank Miller and Steve Gerber's Superman pitch for the post-Crisis launch figuring it was too radical. They turned down Frank Miller at the top of his game! They asked Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons NOT to use the Charlton characters for Watchmen, for fear of what they would do with them afterwards.

See the difference here?

I think when Dick Giordano retired, we were doomed. Then when Kahn left, it got worse. Paul Levitz was the last of the "fan executives". As soon as he was completely gone, the last remnants of what once made DC what it was, was gone.

Chris

I'm not as "in" as many comics fans here, but I think you've expressed this perfectly, Chris.

There is little sense of tweaking characters or solid storytelling anymore, just lurching from one marketing concept to another IMO.

That said, did '30s-'40s comics fans feel about Schwartz' overhauls the way we do today?

I guess the difference is that he was creating new versions, & DC still had affection/respect for the Golden-Age.

[PNGwynne]

I am seriously thinking of converting to trades of stuff I used to like. I just finished the first arc of the Johns/Lee "Justice League" and I'm thinking "Why did I even bother giving it a try?" I'd be better off buying TPBs of classic Justice League pre-Crisis stories than muddle through the chum that DC is currently churning out...

This is what I do--it's torture otherwise.

And I'd honestly rather watch re-runs of "Batman:TAS" that drop $3 on a current Bat-book.

I AM getting crochety, I'm addicted to Me-TV, too

[Cosmicman]

I'm going to be sick. This guy just looks so wrong in so many ways.


I sure hope somewhere the real JSA is going to be popping up and say, "OK, jokes over. Here we are."

[Figuremod73]

Well at least I know I wont have any interest in toys of these!

[bobws]

well said.

[madmarva]

Nice analysis, Ed.

[samurainoir]

I think Didio's biggest problem stems from what he stated when he first took the reigns years ago... he was doing away with "Elseworlds".

He had noted that basically, all the all time best sellers were in fact "non continuity"... and that was where the talent had been allowed to shine best.

Dark Knight, Watchmen, Ultimates, Kingdom Come, Golden Age.

From now on they would take those risks within the DCU... not accounting for the fact that those kind of titles have a beginning, middle and END that is satisfying to readers, but cannot possibly be sustained in serialized fiction, which needs to continue as an indefinite middle act for the heroes. Which is why you have the constant illusions of change... costume changes being the best example of this, or the constant soap opera (which marriages kills that avenue as we saw with Superman and Spiderman). Of course the new contemporary formula seems to be continually sending your B and C list characters and supporting cast into the grinder, because you can't do that with the A list who need to be intact for their appearances in toy aisles and pajamas.

The best classic formula for serialized fiction of this genre is really simple, and why Batman is so ridiculously successful (and the Spiderman films as well)... the villains are the story engine, not the heroes (who are designed to be reactive). Heroes NEED to remain static month in month out if you expect them to run continuously for decades rather than reboot every two years.

In Elseworlds... sure let the heroic character have a quest and let that play out to it's natural conclusions. That is why Dark Knight and Watchmen et al are so satisfying. Let those books be perpetually in print, garner the awards and make the company boatloads of money.

Monthly? Introduce your star villain every arc or issue, let them create their quest and mystery, let the hero intervene. Give your main character a little bit of an arc sometimes... but know that at the end of the day, it won't change them substantially. Geoff Johns at his best does this. It's his villains and supporting characters that are driving both Aquaman and Green Lantern. The perfect example of the reactive nature of how heroes should be... ditto his run on Superman, and Wally West as Flash.

Presenting Sinestro as the titular star of the New 52 relaunch was probably the perfect stunt... you get your big publicity spike, but as soon as fans pick up the book, there is Hal Jordan front and centre... reacting to Sinestro's antics as it's Sinestro's quests and desires that drive the story engine. Meanwhile you give the illusion of something happening with Jordan by sprinkling the soap opera with Carol into the mix (something the title has been lacking for decades).

The new Aquaman setup is brilliant as well... engage the reader by making his desire to live a certain life of normalcy on land. It's something that a reader can relate to. You evoke that wonderful fish out of water metaphor, and then you've got Mera's drama activating to disrupt Aquaman's quest for domesticity. At the end of the day, you have a constant formula for an extended monthly run.. Aquaman wants to be a regular guy living by the shore in a regular house... with a pet dog. The denizens of the water world continually have machinations that draw him back down there.

[Earth 2 Chris]

DiDio has definitely had stars in his eyes, taking any pitch by any Hollywood type and greenlighting it despite what it did to the characters.

I've said it before, but there are no caretakers left in comics. Editors used to be considered stewards of the character. Mort Wesinger was apparently a tyrant, but while he innovated new concepts in the Superman mythos, he didn't totally ignore what was established. Same for Julius Schrwartz that followed him. Even the Byrne reboot had a semblance to the basic core of Superman.

Now it's whatever it takes to make a buck. Change up this, change that, hire this guy (he's hot, right?) and let them do whatever they want as long as their name is on the book and it sells. DC turned down Frank Miller and Steve Gerber's Superman pitch for the post-Crisis launch figuring it was too radical. They turned down Frank Miller at the top of his game! They asked Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons NOT to use the Charlton characters for Watchmen, for fear of what they would do with them afterwards.

See the difference here?

I think when Dick Giordano retired, we were doomed. Then when Kahn left, it got worse. Paul Levitz was the last of the "fan executives". As soon as he was completely gone, the last remnants of what once made DC what it was, was gone.

Chris

[The Toyroom]

Identity Crisis was the game changer. Raked the characters through the mud and defiled many of them...and for what? A lame ending where Jean Loring is the villain. Really? Jean Loring?

They let a writer that was not known as a "comic book writer" take liberties with classic Justice League characters all for the sake of getting a sales bump because Brad Meltzer's name was on the cover.

Similar thing happened when they tried to "fix" Wonder Woman by bringing Allan Heinberg and Jodi Picoult on board because they were "names" in other industries. How'd that work out for them? Or when they tried to have JMS work his magic on Wonder Woman only to have him back out from finishing the whole thing himself. Sure it created headlines because of the horrid costume change (Jim Lee again) but it screwed up Wonder Woman's continuity for a year, probably lost some more long-time die-hard readers...only to have it not even matter because she was rebooted along with everyone else in the New 52.

[The Toyroom]

I've honestly been out for several years, minus a few comics here and there. I guess I could see the tide turning in this direction. DC got so much...meaner when DiDio came onboard. Even with DKR and Watchmen, and the grim and gritty influence of the 80s, the DCU proper still had that feeling that good would EVENTUALLY triumph over evil, and that ultimately the heroes would find their way back to the light.

Identity Crisis was the game changer. Raked the characters through the mud and defiled many of them...and for what? A lame ending where Jean Loring is the villain. Really? Jean Loring?

Infinite Crisis had the promise to course correct EVERYTHING. It even pointed out how dark things had gotten, how unheroic the heroes were behaving. And the result...nothing. Another stunt to reinvigorate the line with "One Year Later".

After that, it was just one boneheaded crossover after another. Darker, and darker.

And then this...

What I don't understand is DiDio spearheaded all of this from "Identity Crisis" all the way down to every other cross-over event that further screwed up the DCU. So he was definitely the guy to cheer if there was a boost in sales because of all of this or the guy to blame if it all failed.

Flash forward to announcements about the New 52 when they said they had to bring back lapsed readers and create new ones because sales were down and dangerously low (paraphrasing here). So WHY is DiDio still in charge AND he was given a promotion besides prior to the apparent necessity of the New 52 reboot. Seems like if he was doing his job correctly, readership wouldn't have lapsed and DC wouldn't be in the state they're in.

Now attracting new readers may be more difficult than holding on to old ones but I think there are other factors at play as far as that is concerned instead of putting the blame on things like Superman's red trunks...

[GaryPlaysWithDolls]

Yack. (Forum says a post has to be a minimum of 6 characters) Again, I say "yack".

[Earth 2 Chris]

I've honestly been out for several years, minus a few comics here and there. I guess I could see the tide turning in this direction. DC got so much...meaner when DiDio came onboard. Even with DKR and Watchmen, and the grim and gritty influence of the 80s, the DCU proper still had that feeling that good would EVENTUALLY triumph over evil, and that ultimately the heroes would find their way back to the light.

Identity Crisis was the game changer. Raked the characters through the mud and defiled many of them...and for what? A lame ending where Jean Loring is the villain. Really? Jean Loring?

Infinite Crisis had the promise to course correct EVERYTHING. It even pointed out how dark things had gotten, how unheroic the heroes were behaving. And the result...nothing. Another stunt to reinvigorate the line with "One Year Later".

After that, it was just one boneheaded crossover after another. Darker, and darker.

And then this...

So yeah, I've been buying TPBs, and lots of TwoMorrows material. I still get my comic fix, but DC won't get my money for taking my favorite characters out back and giving them an emotional wedgie every 6 months.

Chris

[bobws]

[QUOTE=madmarva;883558]if DC is going to do something almost totally different with Earth 2, why keep the character names of Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, Al Pratt and so on. Why not just do something all together new?

For just the same reason Batman had to go back being Bruce Wayne, Copyrights! DC blew it with Capt. Marvel and lost the rights to the name, so
they need to keep the characters names(both hero and secret ID) but then can update the look to try and make the current generation of kids with disposable income happy. after all who has more money to waste ? a 50 yr old with a family and mortgage or a 19 yr old with a job and a car?

Us old timers are always saying how we have to pick and choose what to buy while the kids buy a bunch of stuff. so the powers that be will always aim towards them thier marketing. and just like everyone is saying,wecan go and buy the trades or archives of the golden or silver age stuff to keep us happy.

i'm currently reading the Archives of the Flash GL, JSA(All-Star Comics ) , the Doom Patrol and the Legion. It's much more fun than the new DCU. but i am trying to not give up on my Titans even though DC is doing to many tie -ins for that.

[bleit1701]

As much as I chide you all for being angry old men, between the dissapointment of E2, friggin "Lee" lines, and Shazam, I'm very quickly joining your ranks.

I feel more like the 3 school girls in the TV commercial who follow the middle aged guy around so he won't over eat:

"ew, serisously, dude that is so gorss."