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In my heyday of comic collecting (83-95), there were only 3 titles DC published worth a bean.... Batman, Green Lantern, and Flash. Their prestige format books were top notch (Blackhawk, any Batman stuff) other than that, Marvel and indies (Tmnt, Usagi Yojimbo, 2000 AD) got my money. not until the Batman movie was set to release, did they step it up.
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If DC had taken over Marvel? We would still be waiting for our first Spiderman film...Comment
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Wow, that's mind-boggling. There have been rumors of one buying the other for years. I remember when Marvel went bankrupt the rumors flew in the comic shop I worked at that DC was going to buy Marvel.
As for the Time-Warner connection, DC was bought in the late 60s by Kinney Services, a company that started out owning funeral homes and parking lots(!). There are rumors about that the company started with mob connections. They eventually purchased DC, and then Warner Communications itself. They reshuffled everything together and DC has been a company under some form of the Warner banner ever since.
ChrisComment
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I just remember that i would buy from both companies and independents. I don't remember in 1984 thinking that Marvel was the end all be all... Secret Wars anyone?
Wasn't Romita Jr.Drawing X-men by then??.....lol
all I'm saying that if Marvel would have taken over then the DC books that mattered later in the decade may not have happened as they did.....Comment
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Here's the thing... in some ways "Marvel" (at least in methodology) did in fact end up steering the DCU in the post crisis timeframe.
Marv Wolfman and George Perez were notably talent that was "stolen" from Marvel. They were given the Teen Titans and pretty much allowed to do what they wanted with it, because it was the Teen Titans. They brought the Marvel formula with them and applied it to the book, and even worked "Marvel plot style", which was probably only possible because Marv was writer/editor (the position he held at Marvel).
This was DC's only big success by this time frame, so they pretty much handed the reigns to Wolfman and Perez on Crisis. You can see how desperate DC was to shake things up and were willing to try anything since sales were in the toilet.
Perez of course followed it up with his revamp of Wonder Woman.
As we read in Shooter's blog entry, Byrne had already had a Superman pitch for Marvel that was heavily influenced by the first Reeve Movie. He's the notorious anonymous Marvel "company man/cog" (skewered by Destroyer Duck) that eventually jumped to DC after topping the sales charts on Fantastic Four and Alpha Flight.
Frank Miller had already been lured over from Marvel and allowed to do Ronin (which folks forget was considered a huge bomb at the time), which he followed up with Dark Knight Returns. Based on this success, he was handed Batman Year 1 and brought his Daredevil Born Again artist David Mazzucceli (sp?) with him.
That's the big three in the hands of three major creators at the top of their game that had come up through the ranks at Marvel.
Arguably, those three titles (and Flash and JLI) were the cornerstones of the new DCU Post Crisis.Last edited by samurainoir; Sep 6, '11, 12:48 PM.Comment
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I would have been interesting to see if Marvel would have put some of its top people on DC characters or if it would have been its B-list creators or just left the DC talent on the books.
Would really like to see what Peter David would do with Batman, even now. Really liked his work on Spidey.
Walt Simonson would have been fun on Superman, of course his wife had a long run on the character in the 1990s.
It would have been neat to see issues of the Justice League drawn for John Buscema with inks by Joe Sinnot.Comment
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I forgot Badger. Strange that I did, since he had a huge crossover in Nexus.
To say Marvel methodology steered DC is a tenuous connection to make at best. DC had a formula for doing most of their superhero comics, (said formula didn't apply to Swamp Thing). I recall Jim Shooter saying in either Marvel Age or Marvel Fanfare that they should ditch the formula and just let the writers have the freedom to tell a story in a way that makes sense, (Shooter worked for DC before Marvel). What really happened is DC eventually saw the formula was too restrictive and they ditched it. The Titans may have used the Marvel plot style but it doesn't mean everyone was using it. Also the release of Superman: The Movie should have served as a guideline for writing comic books but it just didn't get thru to them right away.
Also many books/characters/ideas which had been lost in the `70's DC Implosion were on the comeback in the `80's. Many old Jack Kirby ideas were being re-worked into continuity, (The Fourth World characters). Also removing Curt Swan from Superman and publishing The Dark Knight Returns & Watchmen proved they were ready to start pushing the envelope.
DC had Firestorm, 1982, a DC implosion casualty. Gerry Conway's idea was for Firestorm to be the anti-Spider-Man title. He felt that unlike Spider-Man, if you have super-powers you might actually enjoy using them and have some fun. Yes life is hard & being a teenage superhero is tough but the sheer thrill of it all would win out.
Swamp Thing, 1982, was rising. Martin Pasko & Tom Yeates did a fairly good job in ressurecting the title but once Alan Moore took over all bets were off.
DC also scored big by snatching Star Trek from Marvel after Shooter's disasterous proclomation that all Marvel titles will have 1 self-contained story per issue-no multi-issue stories-no exceptions. A stuffy, wooden title like Star Trek flourished and grew at DC. It was a shock but it worked!
Legion spawned Omega men; which was their answer to Micronauts. I recall that DC nurtured Nemesis in The Brave & The Bold but eventually launched a comic named Vigilante, (their answer to the Punisher?). Suicide Squad, Justice League, Ambush Bug were all spinning things in new directions.Lobo was DC's answer to Wolverine but it took them until the 1990's to make him work right.
You could argue DC's first Vertigo title was Thriller, 1983, by Robert Loren Fleming and drawn by Trevor Von Eden. It didn't last but it certainly was popular for a short while and foreshadowed things to come like the Doom Patrol revival, Sandman, Preacher, The Invisibles. (Also Thiller seems similar in some ways to NBC's HEROES). DC was on the rise again. They reacted slowly to Marvel and it just took some time to get up to speed.Last edited by johnmiic; Sep 6, '11, 9:49 PM.Comment
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^^^
all pre crises examples for the most part, none anywhere near the top of the sales charts. All reasons why DC was offered to Marvel in the first place during '82 and why Wolfman/Perez were given their mission to tear down the DCU with Crisis (the exception being the critical darling Swamp Thing). Pasko/yeates, thriller, omega man, nemesis, brave and bold, even vigilante... Not really much left there by '86.
My thesis was centred around the Big Three Characters Post Crisis, as well as DC's one breakout hit pre-crises which put Wolfman/perez in the drivers seat for the revamp.
And let's hold no illusions... It really was post crisis which put DC back on the comeback sales-wise for their monthly ongoing series. (movie Batman also didn't hurt)
Post Crisis, it's difficult not to see DC's revamp being driven by Man of Steel by Byrne, Batman Year 1 by Miller/mazzuccelli, and wonder woman by Perez. All chart topping writer/artists that had made their names and track records on the sales charts at Marvel. These titles really led the new vanguard, set the bar and set the tone for the company wide reboot.
DC's other prong of course was the British invasion/vertigo, which inarguably had them poaching the Warrior/2000 AD crowd.
Not to discount the other pst Crisis successes. Giffen did come from the pre Crisis Dc bullpen.. Cutting his teeth on Legion. Albeit paired with Marvel scripter jm dematties. As well as British invaders Alan grant and Simon bisley.
There was also a big First comics connection in there as well. (I want to say Mike Gold?)
Which brought in badger/nexus creator Mike Baron on Flash. By his own admission he was doing a lot of cocaine at the time which became his entry point into the concept of "super speed". Mike grell was also a DC vet, but pulled back in after his run at First on John Sable freelance, to revamp green arrow. Tim Truman, john Ostrander, howard chaykin and William Messner Loebs being other influential creators pulled over from the indies.Last edited by samurainoir; Sep 6, '11, 11:48 PM.Comment
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You're right, but Wolfman was eventually granted writer/editor status on Titans, something he discussed in a recent interview I came across (word ballon?), where he did compare it to the way he worked at Marvel. (and how it affected him during his post crisis burnout period, NOT working with Perez.Comment
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>What really happened is DC eventually saw the formula was too restrictive and they ditched it.
True, but they definitely went the "heroes with problems" route Marvel had been using for a bit. I suspect it was 'cos Marvel was doing so well, and that formula was a better fit for the percieved older fan base.
>it doesn't mean everyone was using it.
Well.... I think back in the 80's if you were doing a superteam comic they were INVARIABLY the X-Men. (Even the independants. I'm looking at YOU; D.N.A.gents)
>removing Curt Swan from Superman and publishing The Dark Knight Returns & Watchmen proved they were ready to start pushing the envelope.
Maybe, but I think there was a growing perception that the old, more kid-friendly stuff wasn't cutting it with the new crowd so they started skewing in that direction. DC kinda struggled to get in gear (if you've seen any of their 80's driect only titles you'll see what I mean) but eventually got there. I think the problem they have NOW is that the pendulum has swung the other way, the old fan base has moved on and kids count again; but it's taking them a bit to get some traction in that direction.
Side note: if there was an internet in the 80's, can you IMAGINE the gnashing of teeth over Swan no longer doing Superman?
>Legion spawned Omega men;
....Green Lantern, actually.... but with strong Legion ties.... depending on WHICH Legion you refer to.... and when....
*sigh*
>I recall that DC nurtured Nemesis in The Brave & The Bold but eventually launched a comic named Vigilante, (their answer to the Punisher?).
Yeah. Vigilante was one of their early direct market books, and it was pretty bad. (Think "Deathwish 3" kinda bad.) Then again, so was the Omega Men. Ties in with my earlier comment; that they had a hard time dealing with the more.... let's say "mature" for sake of discussion.... material that was en vogue at the time. I think "Dark Knight" and "Watchmen" were the first time they pulled it off with ANY measure of success. (See what happens when you poach talent from 2000AD?)
Another aside: Marvel seemed better able to jump into the "semi-mature" nature of comics in the 80's quicker than DC. Do you think their old B&W mags had anything to do with that?
>Lobo was DC's answer to Wolverine but it took them until the 1990's to make him work right.
You didn't dig the two-tone tights?
>You could argue DC's first Vertigo title was Thriller, 1983, by Robert Loren Fleming and drawn by Trevor Von Eden.
....yeah.... that's a good point! Prior to that DC didn't really deal with heavy stuff.... other than the Speedy thing.... Even their horror books of the 60's and 70's were kinda dialled down. 'Specially compared to them Marvel mags I mentioned a paragraph ago.
Yet ANOTHER aside: I've always marvelled *hah!* at how good Marvel and DC were at parroting each other.... as your examples earlier demonstrated. The Speedy/Spidey's bud thing is another one I'd never thought of.
Don C.Comment
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Really? I thought your Thesis was: "Here's the thing... in some ways "Marvel" (at least in methodology) did in fact end up steering the DCU in the post crisis timeframe." That is what I'm addressing. C'mon dude, at least pay attention to what you're typing.
Wolfman & Perez revamped Teen Titans in 1980 and that's not even post-Crisis. So even if you stick to what you originally said it falls apart because it means they brought the Marvel style in 5 years earlier than Crisis. TT started out sooner than the other successful DC titles of the `80's & gained momentum faster. Firestorm, Star Trek, Swamp Thing were all big sellers in the `80's and all chugged along for many years. Did they out-sell Marvel? Most of the time they probably didn't but they were popular and sucessful titles. There's also no proof DC's other titles were influenced more by the "Marvel style" rather than simply chucking the old DC restrictions on storytelling.
You can't sweep all those examples aside even if they were pre-Crisis. It doesn't matter that most were not blockbuster hits like TT. The titles I mentioned all started knocking on Marvel's door and served as fair warning that DC was going to catch up. DC was trying to counter Marvel's success. Sometimes they tried to copy titles; Micronauts to Omega Men, Punisher to Nemesis & Vigilante, sometimes they beat out Marvel on adaptations; Star Trek, V -The Visitors and sometimes they experimented with off the wall concepts; Suicide Squad, Ambush Bug, Thriller. They just were slow to get their big hits. Yes, some of those titles failed but even the failures paved new inroads for DC. Also the rise of the independents in the early `80's gave DC some cover as well because Marvel was the company to beat. DC learned, grew and went forward based on those lessons.Comment
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^^^^
Okay, you are right, but the crux of my argument centered on Wolfman Perez on Titans as DC's ONE single best seller against the Marvel machine.
For the sake of this conversation, it does matter thattheywere not blockbuster hits... All the initiatives you cite were swept aside in favor of having Wolfman and Perez do their reboot and then setting up Byrne and Miller... Bringing their Marvel game onto superman and batman. I don't see any of your arguments having any bearing on DC's post crisis sales... And sales is unfortunately what ultimately leads where the talent ends up. We can pull out old issues of Amazing Heroes that shows Marvel dominating the sales charts (with the exception of TT), particularly Bryne and Miller titles. We can also show Batman and Superman spiking those sales when they worked their magic.
70% market share is hard to argue with
Even your example of Dark Knight Returns backs this up... Poaching Miller from Marvel with the promises of Ronin.
I love the old guard as much as anyone, but DC stalwarts like Swan, Infantino, et al weren't quite cutting it and DC's influx of talent on the top tier came from Marvel firstly on the front line, then the Brits and indies.
I presenting a pretty cohesive argument and through line of examples based on the initial topic, I'm not quite sure your really reading what I'm saying beyond a phrase here or there that you might disagree with... My own hyperbole aside. Do you disagree with any of my supporting points regarding the talent jumping from Marvel to DC (and back again in some cases)
Marvel->Wolfman/Perez->DC->TT->Crisis->Byrne/Superman->Miller/Batman->Perez/wonder woman
That is pretty much the top tier of DC's monthly sales charts for the eighties compared to Marvel.
Where DC Eventually did kick Marvel's *** was early adaptations of the trades to capitalize on keeping their material in print and supplementing the monthly sales... vertigo's entire profit model was based on this eventually. Eventually overtaking Marvel in the nineties with this strategy and infrastructure, while Marvel tilted at trading cards and multiple covers for short term gains (not that DC didn't do that either)
The trades are really where the UK invasion really made their mark. At DC they were critical darlings, but most were not put on the top characters, instead given the likes of Animal Man, Sandman, Swamp Thing etc.Last edited by samurainoir; Sep 7, '11, 8:19 AM.Comment
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i cant really say im a expert but personally i enjoyed alot of the books pre-crisis. i was actually kind of annoyed at the time to the changes being made in Justice League. Looking back on the byrne superman i believe he was being crammed into to many books and swan really was a good superman artist. i would have rather have had him continue drawing at least a few more years.Comment
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^^^
for me Swan was the definitive Superman artist, and they did continue to give him work at dc... Including of course, Alan moore's whatever happened to the man of tomorrow, Superman the Earth Stealers GN, giffen's aqua man mini, the two page superman feature in action comic weekly.
It's notable though, that Swan'sfinal Superman work was for Penthouse comics, illustrating Larry Niven's essay on Superman's sexuality... Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex. Not unlike Don DeCarlo who did some Josie and the pussycat like characters towards the end.Comment
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