Barnes and Noble - your neighbourhood comic shop?

[ctc]

>Marvel and DC have been reprinting their books since the get go.

They have; often in book form and sold in book stores. (Such as back in the 70's.) But you didn't have the wholesale prsentation like with the Marvel Essentials or Showcase Presents books until recently; and those are readily available everywhere.

>its THE vital part of the industry today and without them as a "proving grounds" for independent books, you don't have half the material of the last 40 years

In the early 80's I would have agreed, but Marvel and DC pretty much squeezed the independents out of the comic shops by the late 80's. (After they started the process on their own....) Part of the crash in the 90's was 'cos the Image paradigm had taken over, and once folks got bored with that there was little else for them.

Most of the experimentation these days takes place online.

>you don't support your small comic shop your really not supporting comics.

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how to reply to this one. I get the impression that you're pretty married to the idea of old school, superhero, 24 page, center fold comics. And I think that's the probelm we have in perspectives. Yeah; the big two and a half have been hammered pretty hard the last decade, and with their decline so too has the comic shop seen a drop in patronage; but I think that's because the two had become intrinsicly linked. But superheroes aren't the total of comic books; there's a LOT more out there, which is why I think now is a boom time for comics. I'm not special ordering things I want; I'm buying them from the local bookstore. I have access to stuff from all over the world, from the beginning of the 20th century to now. I see kids reading comics; something that was an oddity 10, 15 years back. (When I worked at the comic shop in the early/mid 90's we didn't get many kids. And the ones we DID get were mostly speculators.) I see popular series' going into third and fourth printings; breaking the idea of comics as currency, and returning them to the "thing to be read" category. If anything, it's the folks who HAVE patronized the comic shops of the last 20 years that haven't been supporting comics, 'cos it's because of them that the definition became so narrow, and the subject matter became so inbred.

Don C.

[Janson]

>Marvel and DC have been reprinting their books since the get go.

They have; often in book form and sold in book stores. (Such as back in the 70's.) But you didn't have the wholesale prsentation like with the Marvel Essentials or Showcase Presents books until recently; and those are readily available everywhere.

>its THE vital part of the industry today and without them as a "proving grounds" for independent books, you don't have half the material of the last 40 years

In the early 80's I would have agreed, but Marvel and DC pretty much squeezed the independents out of the comic shops by the late 80's. (After they started the process on their own....) Part of the crash in the 90's was 'cos the Image paradigm had taken over, and once folks got bored with that there was little else for them.

Most of the experimentation these days takes place online.

>you don't support your small comic shop your really not supporting comics.

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how to reply to this one. I get the impression that you're pretty married to the idea of old school, superhero, 24 page, center fold comics. And I think that's the probelm we have in perspectives. Yeah; the big two and a half have been hammered pretty hard the last decade, and with their decline so too has the comic shop seen a drop in patronage; but I think that's because the two had become intrinsicly linked. But superheroes aren't the total of comic books; there's a LOT more out there, which is why I think now is a boom time for comics. I'm not special ordering things I want; I'm buying them from the local bookstore. I have access to stuff from all over the world, from the beginning of the 20th century to now. I see kids reading comics; something that was an oddity 10, 15 years back. (When I worked at the comic shop in the early/mid 90's we didn't get many kids. And the ones we DID get were mostly speculators.) I see popular series' going into third and fourth printings; breaking the idea of comics as currency, and returning them to the "thing to be read" category. If anything, it's the folks who HAVE patronized the comic shops of the last 20 years that haven't been supporting comics, 'cos it's because of them that the definition became so narrow, and the subject matter became so inbred.

Don C.

Gonna say it as nice as possible but I just don't agree with anything in your last response. For whatever reason you don't like Comic Shops, thats cool your entitled.

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how to reply to this one. I get the impression that you're pretty married to the idea of old school, superhero, 24 page, center fold comics.

Well that is the format definition of a Comic Book isn't it? We aren't talking about something else like Manga here are we? Cause these kids that you speak of are reading Bleach, that is a Comic Book?
I will say that your line of thinking is in the majority and will be what pushes Comic Shops out finally. Then we all can enjoy the same titles that Disney and Warner pump out.
It also sounds like you haven't been to a Comic Shop in 20 years and as someone who has worked in one within the last 5 years, I'm hoping you to go to one. The speculators haven't been there since the late 90's, the majority of the customers genuinely love comics. I'm hoping you go check out a Comic Shop give it a chance, a lot has changed. Conversations with like minded individuals in the LCS or minimum waged assistants who can give a rats ace about Comics.

[ctc]

>I just don't agree with anything in your last response.

That's fine, but if you're gonna disagree I'd like it if you could site some data. Liek I said, I find it hard to believe folks think comics as a whole are on the outs when I see SO MUCH readily available.

>We aren't talking about something else like Manga here are we? Cause these kids that you speak of are reading Bleach, that is a Comic Book?

Sequential illustrations with dialogue that tells a story; yeah, that's a comic all right. I think what's happening is that you're arguing content, rather than medium. Superheroes have taken some knocks the last few years, but that's a genre; not a medium. Comic books are a meduim that encompasses more than just the Big Two and a Half. Bleach is a comic, so is Archie; and I've seen a lot of hardcore fans poo-poo both as not being "real" comics. Which is a shame, since they're poo-pooing the very things that cured the problem they see: getting kids to read comic books. They may not be the ones YOU like, but they're still comics.

>Then we all can enjoy the same titles that Disney and Warner pump out.

That is; Marvel and DC.

>It also sounds like you haven't been to a Comic Shop in 20 years and as someone who has worked in one within the last 5 years, I'm hoping you to go to one.

Ad hominem. I go about twice a month.

>The speculators haven't been there since the late 90's, the majority of the customers genuinely love comics.

....which is what hammered the Big Two and a Half: a lot of the expansion during the late 80's and early 90's was because of the speculators. Once the multiple holo-foil-limited-edition 0-fifty variant-glow in the dark cover thing scared them away the bottom fell out. I suspect your point is a big factor in why they started the big reprint compilations: there was an audiecne who wanted to READ the books. Marvel: Esssentials are strictly reading books. That's why I think folks should be OVERJOYED about them compilations; they get people READING comics, which is what you need to expand your audience. And getting them into bookstores is great too, 'cos the kids who grew up on stuff like Bleach will eventually look for something different. If Batman is readily available and affordable they'll give it a go.

The challenge for comic shops is mitigating the crossover. For way too long, comic shops have been cloisters for those aforementioned folks who poo-poo Bleach and Archie. Hence why they missed the revolution. The kids who read Bleach and Archie would never think to step into a comic shop 'cos for so long nothing there really interested them.

....but even if they don't switch over, it's all cyclical. There have been times in the past when superheroes were on the downswing. They're not going away.

Don C.

[Janson]

When did I poo poo Archie? All I'm talking about is Superhero's and the Big 2 and a half? Your jumping to alot of assumptions in your replys.

>Then we all can enjoy the same titles that Disney and Warner pump out.
That is; Marvel and DC.

( Sorry, but no duh, who doesn't know that. You obviously are misunderstanding my point)

Sequential illustrations with dialogue that tells a story; yeah, that's a comic all right.

I can't argue with what you want to call something but there is a reason its called Manga because it Manga (presented in a different format which changes how a story is told). Comics and Manga are all Graphic Novels, the correct all encomposing term.

And you go to these festering and cynical Comic Shops 2x a month, why?
Man you are one jaded Comic fan, to go to a place you dislike so much.

[ctc]

>I can't argue with what you want to call something but there is a reason its called Manga because it Manga (presented in a different format which changes how a story is told). Comics and Manga are all Graphic Novels, the correct all encomposing term.

Semantics. "Manga" is the Japanese word for comic book. "Gekiga" would be closer to what we consider a "graphic novel." But either way; I don't think the publishing format really matters: it alters how the books are consumed, but not the content of the story.

>And you go to these festering and cynical Comic Shops 2x a month, why?

To get comics.

>Man you are one jaded Comic fan, to go to a place you dislike so much.

Straw Man. I don't dislike comic shops; but I think the Big Two and a Half worked themselves into a corner mining them as they had for the last 20 years.

Don C.

[Janson]

Name calling. Tsk tsk ctc tsk tsk.

[samurainoir]

Name calling. Tsk tsk ctc tsk tsk.

Janson, I don't think Don is calling you a "Straw Man", but referring to your statement about him.
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I honestly don't think we have much to worry about when it comes to the comics that Marvel and DC put out even if Diamond and the direct market collapses in on itself (which at this point is a not impossible scenario).

I would argue that they have pretty much secured their positions better than all other print publication out there this side of Stephen King and John Grisham. The comics are small change when it comes to the big bucks of licensing action figures and making movies. However, the comics continue to function as content fodder for the toys, movies and video games in the cross horizontal integration of product within the corporate entity of both Warner and Disney. Dark Horse and the major mini-fiefdoms of Image would likewise probably be okay. It's the rest of the guys in the back of the Previews catalogue that would be in trouble, particularly the mostly mom and pop small press publishers without deep pockets to get them through a cash crunch. A healthy industry should not rely on one distributer.

But you are right in your concern for the small business owner/local comic shop who is caught up in all of this. I have the greatest sympathy for the little guy struggling to survive in this market, but it just shows that the old paradigm is potentially broken, as well as being challenged by digital, and they need to embrace new business models to survive. And I'm not just talking about jumping on every trend from Beanies to Trading Cards to Pogs to Heroclix.

Here are a few of examples of stores that I am confident could survive the collapse of Diamond and the direct market because they have diversified their clientele and product...
http://www.beguiling.com/index.php
Page 45 Homepage
LABYRINTH BOOKS Toronto Comics MANGA and GRAPHIC NOVELS - TORONTO

[Janson]

I honestly don't think we have much to worry about when it comes to the comics that Marvel and DC put out even if Diamond and the direct market collapses in on itself (which at this point is a not impossible scenario).

I would argue that they have pretty much secured their positions better than all other print publication out there this side of Stephen King and John Grisham. The comics are small change when it comes to the big bucks of licensing action figures and making movies. However, the comics continue to function as content fodder for the toys, movies and video games in the cross horizontal integration of product within the corporate entity of both Warner and Disney. Dark Horse and the major mini-fiefdoms of Image would likewise probably be okay. It's the rest of the guys in the back of the Previews catalogue that would be in trouble, particularly the mostly mom and pop small press publishers without deep pockets to get them through a cash crunch. A healthy industry should not rely on one distributer.

You don't get any arguement from me there. Big 2 will be fine, DH and Image fine as well. But I don't just read books from these companies, am I the only one who picks up titles from Avatar, Boom!, Blue Water, Aardvark-Vanaheim, Archia, SLG, should I go on?
I know BnN aint carrying these books with their low numbers. Alot of the really small guys will skip floppys and go straight to graphic novel/trade because Diamond doesn't have as strick preorders on trades. The single issue format has been dead since the 90's but it will be completely gone with this change. We wil miss out on alot of great stories because of this.

Correct me if i'm wrong but alot of the Marvel and DC titles I read aren't carried in BnN either, do they have Vertigo or Max/Icon single issues or trades even? I'm sure that's why people come to shops still because BnN ain't carrying the good stuff (not until its profitable anyway). So why support that?
What is the biggest problem with the whole situation from the get go is the Diamond monopoly. If BnN gives shops an alternative to distribution I'm all for it, good luck with that though.
Its scary that comics readership is up yet comic shops are still suffering atleast comics are keeping BnN in business.

[Janson]

[QUOTE]
I know BnN aint carrying these books with their low numbers. Alot of the really small guys will skip floppys and go straight to graphic novel/trade because Diamond doesn't have as strick preorders on trades. The single issue format has been dead since the 90's but it will be completely gone with this change. We wil miss out on alot of great stories because of this.
[QUOTE]

Sorry, my last post got cut off. Just wanted to add that Stan , Jack and Steve didn't always need to stretch a great story beyond its intention, 22 pages can be adequate as well. One problem I have with BnN is they are helping force a story to always be streched out into 6-8 issues so that they can have a trade and then give that deep discount on Secret Invasion trades, blah.
I think when I go to get my Free Comics from BnN this weekend I'll drop off my pull list too.

[MIB41]

I think the days of printed media are slowly coming to an end. The industry trend would certainly suggest that. Look at the number of newspapers that have closed? Look at the established hobby magazines like Toyfare that have closed their doors? Most everything is geared to online viewing. Kids spend all their time on Facebook and texting. I'm afraid a comic book will only remain viable if placed online. Kindles are becoming all the rage for those who enjoy reading. It only makes sense that comics will move to that format. I also say this because these companies are publicly traded and their investors will expect them to stay current with the times. Think of the savings if printing and distribution costs are eliminated? That's massive. While that doesn't sound inviting for those of us who grew up on the printed art form, I am afraid that is status of today's industry. Sad but unavoidable. Comic books in their current form are comparable to what VHS is to Blu-ray - dated and no longer cost efficient. Online is the only way to keep them alive.

[Janson]

I think the days of printed media are slowly coming to an end. The industry trend would certainly suggest that. Look at the number of newspapers that have closed? Look at the established hobby magazines like Toyfare that have closed their doors? Most everything is geared to online viewing. Kids spend all their time on Facebook and texting. I'm afraid a comic book will only remain viable if placed online. Kindles are becoming all the rage for those who enjoy reading. It only makes sense that comics will move to that format. I also say this because these companies are publicly traded and their investors will expect them to stay current with the times. Think of the savings if printing and distribution costs are eliminated? That's massive. While that doesn't sound inviting for those of us who grew up on the printed art form, I am afraid that is status of today's industry. Sad but unavoidable. Comic books in their current form are comparable to what VHS is to Blu-ray - dated and no longer cost efficient. Online is the only way to keep them alive.

Yeah it is sad, comics where one of the few things that we where competely producing 100% in the States till the big 2 moved the printing to Canada a couple years ago. Eh, what tangible product do we still make here in the States anyway?

[Janson]

OK, so I'm reading the newest issue of Walking Dead last night, #84 and I swear I feel like Rick Grimes. (If your not reading Walking Dead every month your missing out on the finest book the comics industry puts out today. Don't wait for trade buy the floppies!)
Ok so if you aren't up to date stop reading this......spoiler alert.





---------------------------------------------------------
Rick and company are able to over power the zombie horde by working together with their smaller numbers. Alone and in somber reflection of the days events with his mortally wounded son Carl, Rick at Carl's bedside says,

"I can't believe it took me this long to realize this. After so long, being driven from one place to the next... I noticed, it was always PEOPLE-- that was the problem.
I can't believe I'm saying this... but the dead. They're A manageable threat?
I see the mistake I made wanting to run... not being willing to stand and fight...it cost Jesse and Ron their lives I have to live with that...
But I've seen what we can do with numbers. I've seen how we can organize plan... how if we do things right... if everyone does their part... we can survive anything.
This place is OURS , the fence, the houses...we can make this home. We've been lazy up until now. But that all changes. Today- this instant.
I see now what we can do, with enough people, with a strategy... we can make this place much more safe... secure.
We can set up roadblocks-- surround this place with a maze for the dead. Keeping them off the walls in significant numbers.
We can rebuild the walls, stronger, taller... make our community better than it ever was."

I know its just a story but man I think Kirkman might be using this as a metaphor for the comics community as a whole.
I know how you feel Rick, its not easy fight off the BnN zombie horde with one hand and a axe, kidding kidding.

[samurainoir]

You don't get any arguement from me there. Big 2 will be fine, DH and Image fine as well. But I don't just read books from these companies, am I the only one who picks up titles from Avatar, Boom!, Blue Water, Aardvark-Vanaheim, Archia, SLG, should I go on?

I read titles from all those companies, but let's face it, a majority of comic shops just aren't stocking titles from the indies in significant numbers these days unless you special order them.

Which is why I see comics shops surviving based on two models... the diversified bookstore model embraced by the Beguiling and Page 45 (and a few San Francisco comic shops I've been to, who's names escape me right now), or as limited edition collectibles once again with a very niche market. The Big Two do this with their variant covers, and you have other companies of varying sizes doing the same... including dynamite, IDW, Boom, and Avatar off the top of my head.

The problem with this is that to get these limited edition incentives, the store has to order piles and piles of comics that no one reads and just ends up in the quarter bins. We saw it happen with the Brightest Day Ring promotions... huge success for DC, but I just see the piles of the peripheral tie in comics all over the place unloved and unwanted. It's the serpeant eating it's own tail in the nineties all over again unless you truly are creating something that has much less supply than demand (and we're not just talking the news headline "event" blips like the death of so and so), and an actual readership for each copy purchased. Which goes at cross purposes of how a money-making comic company has functioned in the past couple of decades.

You know the situation is rather dire when Dave Sim has jumped on the Variant Cover, Limited Edition bandwagon just to sell enough copies of Glamourpuss to keep it going (but that's another discussion completely).



We should watch the ipap/android apps with a great deal of interest over the next year. The growth and profitability isn't quite there, but it took a while for the various internet models of comics (ie penny arcade etc) to find a groove as well. It's astonishing how many of the most successful free content guys made the jump to being able to cultivate an audience for their print incarnations, or that some managed to thrive with ad revenue (which is essentially how the old school comics did it). Meanwhile, Marvel and DC's internet initiatives have mostly been going down in flames (some that corporate infrastructure heavy however, would be difficult to find profitability).

[samurainoir]

Yeah it is sad, comics where one of the few things that we where competely producing 100% in the States till the big 2 moved the printing to Canada a couple years ago. Eh, what tangible product do we still make here in the States anyway?

I should point out with great Canadian pride, that I believe the Great White North had been handling comic book printing for much longer than that... a couple of decades at least?

With more typical Canadian humility I must also admit that Quebecor has also been in bankrupcy for the past few years. Which also added to industry strife and hardship.

[Janson]

Glamourpuss is amazing. I love the content, my girlfriend loves to cut them up when i'm done, damn FIT fashionista.