Steve Ditko BBC Documentary

[Janson]

Wow...I didn't know you were that old. You actually were there when Stan and Jack and Steve talked things over on the creation of these characters??? If you were, then please tell us more...I'd like to hear of how Marvel worked back in the day. You seem to be an expert...and from what I can tell, you were actually there while it was happening.

There are a lot of people at Marvel that never got credit for creating characters...Steve Ditko being one of them. Unfortunately Stan gets credit for everything. Stan is one of the biggest BS artists in the industry. He's a showman...that's it. He's been that for Marvel since the late 60's. Just a figurehead and nothing more. The only reason why Stan is doing anything these days is because he got taken in a scam by a financial advisor "To The Stars" out in LA a few years back and lost A LOT of money.

Actually what Mego Superboy Prime said, has been documented that is how it went down mostly. That Stan took the idea to others including Jack Kirby who did the cover to Amazing Fantasy #15. Jack Kirby even tried to take credit for the creation because of the cover. Real jerky move by Kirby as well.
But in the end the majority of the credit goes to Ditko, he created everything but the name for the character. The fact that he was left off as a co-creator from 1963 till 1999 is in majority Stan Lee's fault. Too bad Steve Ditko didn't have an Uncle who owned his on comic book company so he could take all the credit.

[samurainoir]

It's pretty apparent that it's not really a one over the other kind of thing with Lee and Ditko... semantics aside we know that they are co-creators and whether you divide that into a pie chart of percentages i.e. 20/80 or 60/40 doesn't really change that simple credit. At the end of the day god only knows how much Stan has to watch what he says these days given the number of lawsuits and settlements are out there (including his own past settlement with Marvel, which probably comes with it's own set of what he can and cannot say). But he shouldn't necessarily be discounted in his credit for being a better self promoter and businessman than his artists.

Also note that Stan and Marvel are not really synonymous... Stan himself has been screwed over by Marvel enough in the past, but learned from his mistakes and managed to renegotiate better deals that eventually did net him the millions (in addition to having to sue and settle with Marvel in the nineties after they broke his contract).

Ross and others here do have a valid point though... in the past Stan has overshadowed his artists with his self promotion, but it's not like he can really go back and time and change that now. The fact that it's well documented that Stan himself insisted on adding Ditko's credit to the movie speaks volumes.

At the end of the day, the world should know that Spider-man was a co-creation of Lee and Ditko. For now, Ditko himself does not want anything to do with it all and apparently hasn't accepted any of the money offered. His wishes should be respected in that matter.


I also think there is an interesting parallel with Gaiman and Moore being in the documentary... there we have the textbook case of the principled artist (Moore) contrasted with Gaiman, who has been nothing but a wise businessman in his dealings with not only the Big Two, but his well known wrestling match with MacFarlane over Angela/Dark Ages Spawn/Miracleman.

[samurainoir]

or in other words... A is not necessarily A if you live in a non-black and white world like most of us.

[samurainoir]

Too bad Steve Ditko didn't have an Uncle who owned his on comic book company so he could take all the credit.

It's also pretty well documented how that "Uncle"... Martin Goodman I'm assuming you mean... shafted Stan as badly as the artists like Kirby, after having promised to "take care of him" during the sale of Marvel to Cadence in the seventies.

No such luck. Stan took that lesson and negotiated increasingly better contracts with the new corporate conglomerate owned Marvel (in it's various incarnations) over the following two decades, that eventually were akin to golden handcuffs. A paid figurehead and spokesperson who's primary job was wandering around Hollywood Studios chatting up producers who were enamoured by Stan and the hyperbolic mythology surrounding him that they had grown up with.

In the Comic Wars of the nineties, those handcuffs were broken during the Marvel Bankrupcy debacle and Stan had to take legal action against Marvel.

Stan's subsequent post-Marvel internet follies is also worth reading up on (his partner just about took down the Clinton Presidency with his dirty dealings!), but isn't really relevant to the current discussion.

[samurainoir]

Additional Bibliography for those wanting to dig into it...





Both of which serve as nice counterpoints to Stan's own obviously self-aggrandizing autobiography...


Brian Bendis also has some interesting insider commentary around halfway through this Word Balloon podcast.
http://hw.libsyn.com/p/1/6/7/1671cb6...&l_mid=2469553


and I can't recommend Comic Wars enough...

[Janson]

It's also pretty well documented how that "Uncle"... Martin Goodman I'm assuming you mean... shafted Stan as badly as the artists like Kirby, after having promised to "take care of him" during the sale of Marvel to Cadence in the seventies.

No such luck. Stan took that lesson and negotiated increasingly better contracts with the new corporate conglomerate owned Marvel (in it's various incarnations) over the following two decades, that eventually were akin to golden handcuffs. A paid figurehead and spokesperson who's primary job was wandering around Hollywood Studios chatting up producers who were enamoured by Stan and the hyperbolic mythology surrounding him that they had grown up with.

In the Comic Wars of the nineties, those handcuffs were broken during the Marvel Bankrupcy debacle and Stan had to take legal action against Marvel.

Stan's subsequent post-Marvel internet follies is also worth reading up on (his partner just about took down the Clinton Presidency with his dirty dealings!), but isn't really relevant to the current discussion.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Peter_Paul.jpg

Samarainoir, Is that Avi Arad in the pic with Hillary?
I'm in total agreement with you that it is semantics and that they both created the character. But why does it take Stan Lee so long to own up to the co-creation credit if its such a no brainer to everyone? That is the issue.
As far as Goodman screwing over his nephew, you reap what you sow brother. Stan Lee is an icon and we all love what he did for Marvel, there is no Marvel without Stan Lee. But there is no Stan Lee without Kirby, Ditko and others that Stan screwed. Stan Lee is the Man, he also is a bit of a jerk.

[Blue Meanie]

why does it take Stan Lee so long to own up to the co-creation credit if its such a no brainer to everyone? That is the issue.
As far as Goodman screwing over his nephew, you reap what you sow brother. Stan Lee is an icon and we all love what he did for Marvel, there is no Marvel without Stan Lee. But there is no Stan Lee without Kirby, Ditko and others that Stan screwed. Stan Lee is the Man, he also is a bit of a jerk.

Thank you...at least someone got what I was trying to say.

Stan's been a non existent entity in comics since the late 60's for a reason....he has/had no one to collaborate with for 40+ years. I never said Stan wasn't talented. He was a good PR person for Marvel...until Marvel didn't need him anymore. Which has been for the better part of 30years now. Stan has always been about one person and one person only...Stan. EXCELSIOR!

[samurainoir]

That is Peter Paul. Google up him along with the circus that was Stan Lee Media. Based on that alone, I would classify Stan as foolish, but I don't think that makes him a jerk (but again, semantics and degrees right?)

We've all got the benefit of hindsight... particularly now that comics have found legitimacy and a level of lucrative payout that most could never have foreseen pre-Lucas Star Wars.

I'm by no means defending Stan's behaviour, but given the lack of shelf life comics had back then (as disposable culture... no collected editions), coupled with the fact that theses particular artists in question had moved on by the time the seventies rolled around and Stan was getting into full self promotion mode, would he really have seen the point? Also pre-internet right? Was he talking to maybe dozens of people at that time period at the conventions and fanzine circuit? Who knew that eventually this much obsession, documentation and scrutiny would be involved fifty years down the line. Who knows how these very internet babblings we spew forth right now can be held against us in fifty years time.

In the Silver Age of Marvel, I understand credits were a fairly new thing to comics. Heck Bob Kane was still signing his name to his myriad of Ghosts a few years prior at the end of the fifties. Everyone wanted to be Walt Disney, I'm sure Stan included in his own way.

What DC Comics did to Seigel and Shuster... what Marvel did to Kirby even (around his artwork in particular). Those guys were Jerks. The Martin Goodmans and Harry Donnefelds. Jerks. Agreed 100%. I'd even throw Mort Weisenger in there as well for his part. As for Stan... I'd say a large degree of foolishness and shortsightedness, but ultimately there has been no real evidence of bad intentions on his part, which is how I usually filter out these things. Ignorance and Self Aggrandizement? I think Stan himself has copped to that on occasion.

Which isn't to say that Ditko and Kirby didn't make their share of bad business decisions. In the case of Kirby, it was ridiculously foolish in hindsight to testify against Joe Simon on behalf of Marvel in the seventies. Some would say it's foolish that Ditko refuses the Spider-man payouts offered. Alan Moore thinks it's principled.

[samurainoir]

Other tomes worth perusing on the geeky reading list...

[WannabeMego]

Stan Lee...the P.T. Barnum of Comics!!!

'Nuff Said

[Janson]

First of all Samurainoir, thank you, I'm enjoying this conversation. You know your comics. For the better part of the conversation I'm in agreement with you, think we are on the same page. My hiccup is that it has always been a credited art form from the beginning. Who wrote, drew, lettered, colored the issue right there on the front page, always.
Being that comics is a visual driven medium its pretty safe to say that the artist is a big part in the creation of the character, why Stan can't admit to that is beyond belief. When Stan says that he created Spider-Man because he came up with the idea, yes he is right. When Stan then asks Steve to draw a character called Spider-Man. Steve has to come up with how Peter Parker looks, the costume, the mask, the colors, the logos, the design, the web shooters. Stan has alot of nerve to say that created Spider-Man with no acknowledgment to the artist. If I was Stan I would be kissing these guys butts instead of helping to drive them away from Marvel.
I don't like bashing Stan, he is a childhood hero. I'm glad that he is doing right by his contemporaries today. If he had been like this back in the 60's and 70's I would have had Ditko, Kirby, Wood, Simon as childhood heroes as well.

Stan is the man, its Bob Kane who is the ******.

[Blue Meanie]

If you want to see the sheer arrogance of Stan Lee watch Part 6 where he still can't own up to the fact that Ditko co-created Spiderman. He says "The person that comes up with the idea is the person that is the creator..." That's only true, in a visual medium like comic books, if you can both WRITE and DRAW the idea/creation that you've come up with. Stan may have been good with the words...but he needed someone to draw what his words were saying. He basically says that anyone can draw if he's given a script. It's no wonder that there are a lot of people out there that can't take the crap that comes out of his mouth. Thank God I've never met Stan. Arrogance like that needs to be put in it's place.

[Mego Superboy Prime]

Additional Bibliography for those wanting to dig into it...

http://images.tcj.com/2011/03/bookcover_cj181.jpg

http://www.comicbookgalaxy.com/images/stanlee-cover.jpg

Both of which serve as nice counterpoints to Stan's own obviously self-aggrandizing autobiography...

http://cinefantastiqueonline.com/wp-content/uploads/StanLee_EX_book.jpg

Brian Bendis also has some interesting insider commentary around halfway through this Word Balloon podcast.
http://hw.libsyn.com/p/1/6/7/1671cb6...&l_mid=2469553


and I can't recommend Comic Wars enough...
http://pdf-ebook.org/datupian/6162eLJaHAL.jpg

The Bendis interview was great, he said it perfect. Stan Lee was a genius in so many ways. And if Ditko doesn't care, then leave it at that.

I hung with Stan Lee back in 2008 at the New York Comic Con. With my production company, I had press passes to a special exclusive event he was at and there wasn't many people there. Stan hung with us for over an hour talking and was telling people we were "His kind of people" it was great! I even kissed him on the cheek!! And the great thing was that he didn't even have to stick around and yet he did. Must've been in a good mood that night. Here's a pic of us (I'm the one with the Green Lantern hat).



Blue Meanie can say what he wants and his BOLD threats to an 80 year old man that has accomplished more than he ever will in life makes me laugh. Be glad Stan was around because he gave you all your Marvel Mego's you covet so much. Sure Stan is on his high horse and what he has done in this life will last forever and for that he should be proud. What have you done Meanie? Who is going to remember you? I'm listening...

[WannabeMego]

The problem that some people have (me included) with Stan Lee is that he is the only one that can tell us what REALLY happen...instead he prefers to paint a rosey picture and rewrite history each and every time he talks.

It would be refreshing to hear the TRUTH for a change, but just like the boy that cried wolf, if Stan started, no one would believe him at this point.

I believe this kinda sums it up:

Stan's been a non existent entity in comics since the late 60's for a reason....he has/had no one to collaborate with for 40+ years. I never said Stan wasn't talented. He was a good PR person for Marvel...until Marvel didn't need him anymore. Which has been for the better part of 30 years now. Stan has always been about one person and one person only...Stan.

There was a lot of I, Me, Mine coming out of Stan's mouth instead of We.

Now that I'm older, I prefer to give Stan as little press (Good or Bad) as possible so he can feel what it's like to be ignored and pushed to the side as the Artists and other writers have that got him where he was.

If you want to get a feel for what it was like working under Stan back then, I advise everyone to talk to any of the Artists that are left from that period instead of Stan.

Anyway...you obviously have your reason to love Stan and others don't.

...but for what it's worth...he was the ***** when I was 12.

[Janson]

The Bendis interview was great, he said it perfect. Stan Lee was a genius in so many ways. And if Ditko doesn't care, then leave it at that.

I hung with Stan Lee back in 2008 at the New York Comic Con. With my production company, I had press passes to a special exclusive event he was at and there wasn't many people there. Stan hung with us for over an hour talking and was telling people we were "His kind of people" it was great! I even kissed him on the cheek!! And the great thing was that he didn't even have to stick around and yet he did. Must've been in a good mood that night. Here's a pic of us (I'm the one with the Green Lantern hat).

http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx81/ElasticHulk/mee028.jpg

Blue Meanie can say what he wants and his BOLD threats to an 80 year old man that has accomplished more than he ever will in life makes me laugh. Be glad Stan was around because he gave you all your Marvel Mego's you covet so much. Sure Stan is on his high horse and what he has done in this life will last forever and for that he should be proud. What have you done Meanie? Who is going to remember you? I'm listening...

Hey man,
I was at that event, didn't have special passes though.
Had to catch the first 430 am train into Penn and wait on line for 5 hours @ Jacob Javitz (1 outside & 4 in the basement) to be fifth on line, they only gave out 100 tickets to the event in 2008. And I would do it again because I got the chance to thank one of my big heroes in person, have to find the pics from it. Stan was amazing and he did make everyone in the room feel special. But just because he is a nice man, a genius, and none of us will probably ever accomplish what he did in his lifetime, doesn't mean he didn't make a mistake for 30 years by not sharing the credit with his co-creators.