Kingdom Come revisited

[Random Axe]

I make it a point to sit down and read this cover to cover at least once a year, and it never fails to mesmerize me. I always find little details and hidden stuff that I hadn't picked up on before. A lot of people on here I know are very lukewarm to the story/art, and I understand. For whatever reason, this is the single best comic I've ever read or could hope to. I'll eventually pick up the absolute edition at some point and make a go of it, but for now my original hardback edition works magic for me every time.

Scott

[The Toyroom]

I re-read it at least twice a year...still the original "Prestige Format" floppies....At this point I think I'm beyond discovering anything new anymore but it's still a great read. I find myself more drawn to re-reads of this than say Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns.

[Earth 2 Chris]

KC almost reads as a portent of current comics. Except the old guard has been swept up into the newer, darker, more violent comic movement, and unfortunately, can't return to "fix" it.

It's still Waid and Ross' best work. It's a shame they can't bury the hatchet and produce another project.

Chris

[palitoy]

I didn't realize Waid and Ross weren't speaking, KC is a milestone. It actually brought me back into comics, until I ran away screaming again.

[Earth 2 Chris]

^I don't know if it's THAT bad, but they don't have much desire to work together again. They were trying to launch The Kingdom as an ongoing, in-continuity that would introduce elements of KC into the DCU. Plans fell apart, and then Waid went ahead and participated in The Kingdom as a Fifth Week event, without Ross. Ross was pretty torqued. He later did his own sequel to KC with Geoff Johns in JSA.

Chris

[number 6]

Yeah, I think this along with DC: New Frontier are best things DC has put out in the last 15 years. Both of these really inspired me to get into silver age comics to get away from the "grim and gritty" stuff, just old-fashonied wholesome super hero stories.

It actually brought me back into comics, until I ran away screaming again.

^heh, yeah pretty much had the same experience myself. 'Maybe comics are getting good again. Oops, my mistake, nevermind.'

[samurainoir]

^I don't know if it's THAT bad, but they don't have much desire to work together again. They were trying to launch The Kingdom as an ongoing, in-continuity that would introduce elements of KC into the DCU. Plans fell apart, and then Waid went ahead and participated in The Kingdom as a Fifth Week event, without Ross. Ross was pretty torqued. He later did his own sequel to KC with Geoff Johns in JSA.

Chris

In the Kingdom Come companion, Ross sounded pretty darn upset. Particularly when it comes to character that he made up when he was 8 years old, like Nightstar. But it has been well over a decade now and he's since had his chance to do a KC sequel recently as you mention.

The fact that the art is so breath-taking and detailed is probably what lends itself to re-reading over Watchmen and Dark Knight. Although to be fair, I've been re-reading the latter two for a quarter decade versus the dozen years I've had to reread KC.

There is also that Where's Waldo element to KC as well that is much more fun than Gibbons and Moore's formalist novelties in Watchmen (the symmetrical Watchmen issues, sugar cube continuity etc.).

I think for the most part, journeymen creators like Waid and Ross generally have one big work like this in their lifetimes that is just the right amount of inspiration, heart and soul, timing and elbow grease. It's like catching lightning in a bottle and it's very hard to surpass once you hit that note. You are either repeating it verbatim for the rest of your career or your other efforts can't quite match it.

I think it was a bit of a mistake for both of them to revisit the work once it was finished. Both together adding in the completely unnecessary coda at Planet Krypton revealing WW's pregnancy, and separately with The Kingdom skip week event and Thy Kingdom Come in JSA (although the JSA one plays best).

I did love the "lost" scene with Mister Miracle and the prison though. Again, nice touch but completely not needed.

[samurainoir]

Yeah, I think this along with DC: New Frontier are best things DC has put out in the last 15 years. Both of these really inspired me to get into silver age comics to get away from the "grim and gritty" stuff, just old-fashonied wholesome super hero stories.

I honestly wouldn't call KC or NF old fashioned or wholesome in the sense that I'd hand them to a younger kid. Both stories are grim in their own way.

I think we're responding to the characters as the creators are, with the silver age incarnations with their black and white morality forced to confront contemporary ideas that are a bit more ambiguous.

Ultimately, as aging fans, we want the illusion of change without change. With the status quo resuming at the end of every episode. Just as it was when we were growing up. Which is the strength and weakness of ongoing serialized stories and the fact that the readership is no longer turning over every few years, but continuing for decades and decades from kids to teens to adults. No medium or characters or creator can withstand that kind of scrutiny. I'm still convinced he's creating some genius works, but I doubt anyone else here is following his prose or performance stuff because it doesn't have a whiff of superheroes or adolescent fantasy about them. Remember the backlash to Big Numbers?

[Earth 2 Chris]

In the Kingdom Come companion, Ross sounded pretty darn upset. Particularly when it comes to character that he made up when he was 8 years old, like Nightstar. But it has been well over a decade now and he's since had his chance to do a KC sequel recently as you mention.

Yeah, it seems Ross fell for the trap that has kept many creators from "giving" DC or Marvel truly original characters in the past 20 years or so. But to be honest, most of Ross' childhood characters were very derivative of existing characters.

It's a safe bet Ross gets royalties from all KC-related figures, statues, etc. I wonder if he gets royalties from the Red Robin series though? He created that visual and that name, even though it's now applied to Tim Drake, who was created by Marv Wolfman (with George Perez) and Pat Broderick, I believe.

Chris

[BlackKnight]

I liked Thy Kingdom Come Better.

[The Toyroom]

I liked Thy Kingdom Come Better.

I can't believe you even said that

[samurainoir]

Yeah, it seems Ross fell for the trap that has kept many creators from "giving" DC or Marvel truly original characters in the past 20 years or so. But to be honest, most of Ross' childhood characters were very derivative of existing characters.

It's a safe bet Ross gets royalties from all KC-related figures, statues, etc. I wonder if he gets royalties from the Red Robin series though? He created that visual and that name, even though it's now applied to Tim Drake, who was created by Marv Wolfman (with George Perez) and Pat Broderick, I believe.

Chris

I understand that DC has royalties for what they term "derivative" characters. I'm sure Ross must get his share of the Red Robin $$ when it comes to the ancillary merch and media, as does Waid as the co-creator on record. Nor sure Ross is at splitting that pie given the fact that he really did express a certain degree of feeling when it came to the creative roots over those derivative characters.

My understanding is that Rob Liefeld doesn't feel Louise Simonson deserves her co-creator credit for Cable either since Commander X in her script didn't really have much bearing on who Cable eventually became in the pages of X-Force. Although to be fair, she did plant the roots of him being Christopher Summers whom she also without a doubt created in X-Factor, which probably strengthens her claim as co-creator.

I sometime wonder how muddy these co-creator claims get? Gaiman shares all the Sandman royalties with Mike Dringenberg and Sam Keith for example. Both of whom stopped being part of the creative drive of The Sandman early on. When Keith and Dringenberg get the cheques for their share of the Sandman and Death movie option money and royalties for all the Sandman books in print, it must feel like winning the lottery. Particularly Keith who's run didn't even last five issues.

[BlackKnight]

I can't believe you even said that

I did.
Sorry to Interupt your circle jerk ... , I just got off of work.

Seriously though ..., having not read the Actual Kingdom Come story, but only a few yrs back ..., it leaves me at ok. I wasn't around when the hype was delievered, and I liked the follow up in this actual time line better.

[The Toyroom]

I did.
Sorry to Interupt your circle jerk ... , I just got off of work.

Seriously though ..., having not read the Actual Kingdom Come story, but only a few yrs back ..., it leaves me at ok. I wasn't around when the hype was delievered, and I liked the follow up in this actual time line better.

The coolness about Kingdom Come (the original) is all of the hidden cameos and the nods and winks in addition to a pretty good story dealing with the archetypes of the DCU and the rising upstarts who have turned being a "superhero" into a bad thing...At the time it was very much a commentary on then-current state of the Image-ization of characters with big guns and four arms

All of the attempts at contiuning this storyline, be it Waid's attempt at "The Kingdom" or Ross (and Johns') attempt at "Thy Kingdom Come" in JSA have been half-assed and half-hearted IMO.

They should have left it alone as an "Elseworlds" story that could/might happen instead of trying to fold it in to the DCU proper as something that will happen...or "sorta" happen

[BlackKnight]

Perhaps thats why I didn't enjoy it was much as others ..., Because when I did finally read it, alot of the Mythos was starting to flood somewhat already into the DC Universe, and it wasn't really fresh and New to me when I saw it.