Thing's Anatomy

[samurainoir]

[BlackKnight]

I see they Don't cover His Penis .
Talk about Laying Brick.

[samurainoir]

Smiln' Stan Lee has a response to that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_4lPExdZjQ

[Brazoo]

Very cool. The reinforced ribcage is pretty neat, and I like the micro shot of the scales a lot.

I'm not nuts about the explanation of the mutation creating new types of organs - like the mineral stomach - but I do like the mutated versions of his normal ones. About the hands - I've always thought that the bone structure of the 3rd and 4th fingers were there, but combined together under the skin. Otherwise, when he reverted to normal how would his new organs and missing finger change back?

[ctc]

Hmmmm....

It's interesting.... even though most of that pic doesn't make any sense. (Reinforced ribs with a smaller mass ration than normal ones, random wound intestines....) The weird thing is the refrence to the "carbon soup;" isn't this the old explanation for how Concrete's shell works?

Don C.

[Brazoo]

Thinking WAY too much about this because I'm procrastinating doing some really boring work right now, but here's are my dumb thoughts and hopefully you guys (lookin' at you Don) will clarify any concepts I'm goofing up:

When Ben originally turned into Thing the cosmic rays mutated his genes AND it must have provided his body with extra energy so that his body could generate his extra body mass.

When he occasionally turns back into plain ol' Ben we have to think that the regeneration process somehow converts the extra body mass back into energy which gets used up during his reversion, OR the extra mass dissipates back into the universe. Otherwise he would shed his extra mass and leave behind a pile of organic Thing-matter on the ground.

We rarely see energy leaving his body when he changes, though sometimes we see some Kirby-Krackle effects, usually his metamorphosis just looks like this:



(Which doesn't necessarily mean the energy isn't being displaced back into the universe - it might just not be visible.) In any case the extra mass needs to come from someplace when he changes into The Thing and go someplace when he reverts to Ben.

So here's the conflict about this new diagram, to me:

A) If his genes are all mutating and then mutating back to normal - so that his normal skin, ears and pinky finger are all regenerated by his normal genes - then I can imagine that he really is loosing parts of his skeletal structure and ears and stuff because he can regrow them. The normal Ben genes are still there, and in a stem cell-like state - basically the markers for those parts are being maintained in his genetic code even when he's The Thing and that means he could loose parts of Ben's skeletal structure. Kind of like how we all have the genes to grow a tail when we're fetuses, but then we have genetic markers that remove the tail after it starts to form. If we could switch the markers on (or we have a mutation) we might grow a tail. BUT where do the genes for the The Thing's new organs come from? If they're a mutation then what are they a mutation of?

B) If his normal skin, pinky finger and ears still exist in there in some form but just being hidden by his external scales, then the transformation could be created by new genes - new alien DNA - not just mutations of old ones - and to me that makes it more plausible that a new organs could be formed - like the new portions of his digestive tract and new organs in the diagram above. BUT that means his finger, ears and normal skin are still in there someplace.

So I'm happy with him doing one or the other, but I don't like him doing both.

Thinking about it more, I'm leaning towards version B). When he's in his normal Ben state he looks normal - BUT we know he's still not really normal, because in order to change back into The Thing SOMETHING in his body still allows him to collect and process that extra energy so he can change and regenerate his Thing body - So whether he's Ben or The Thing - he's somehow got new genes AND his normal genes to me - not just mutated version of his normal genes. The new stuff is the stuff that's changing his genes, growing new organs and functions and also drawing in energy to create the mass for his Thing body.

EDIT: I guess Reed would have been able to detect new DNA, but one possible explanation is that his new DNA is invisible in some way. Maybe even by the same process that makes Invisible Woman invisible - after all, they were supposedly affected by the same radiation. Maybe that's another reason he's had such a hard time trying to cure Ben.

In real life I think it's much easier for mutations to effect and change external parts instead of internal organs and skeletal structures. So adding new genes to Ben instead of just explaining that his normal genes have mutated makes more sense to me. Though, mutations in the Marvel Universe don't always follow those rules - so that might not be an issue.

I guess version A) might make more sense if you're thinking more about how Ben doesn't have any deformity or scarring when he changes back to normal.

What d'ya think sirs?*







*I'm not trying to ignore women, just quoting MS3K because I'm such a nerd.

[ctc]

Hmmmm....

I gotta go with "A." He seems to have a totally new bodily structure; and that inbetween phase we see when he changes back is probably the result of his body shedding the extra cells; insides first, so that the body loses mass but still maintains an outer shell. (Kinda how real life wounds heal.) As to where the old ones go? Maybe they deteriorate into fine dust, and/or dissipate energy as flashes. His Thing body becomes an incredibly short-lived sort of coccoon for his Ben body. Adding mass and structure can just be really fast cellular mitosis, spurred on by a driect energy conversion of ambient cosmic rays; the source of the original transmutation.

Don C.

[Brazoo]

Adding mass and structure can just be really fast cellular mitosis, spurred on by a driect energy conversion of ambient cosmic rays; the source of the original transmutation.

I totally agree with this - I think one of his powers HAS to be the ability to create and loose mass from ambient energy.

According to this: Thing (Benjamin Grimm) - Marvel Universe Wiki: The definitive online source for Marvel super hero bios. The Thing weighs 500 pounds (which is less than I thought he would weigh). Assuming that Ben weighs in the ballpark of 220 pounds it still makes it hard for me to believe that he's shedding that much mass without people noticing - even if it is extremely fine dust. So I'm still more likely to think that the process of the reversion itself converts and uses the energy or it dissipates back into ambient energy - as you say.

If The Thing is made of some totally new structure doesn't that make it more like B? Some kind of new DNA marker - or foreign influence, like a virus and not just mutation? Again, that makes him having new organs more believable to me. Like, if it was just mutation alone, then maybe the scales are mutated skin or hair or something - but if it's a completely new type of organic matter then I think it must be foreign. No?

[Brazoo]

I'm looking up wound healing on wikipedia - the article makes a distinction between repair and regeneration. That might be a good place to narrow down what's happening to The Thing when he changes.

I know I first learned about this process from the old Spider-Man foe The Lizard. Wikipedia confirms what I learned: "Mammals do not regenerate spontaneously."

Maybe The Thing's power is actually some kind of accelerated spontaneous regeneration process which is elastic enough to convert him to Thing and Ben form?

[ctc]

Hmmmm....

You're startin to slip into the "scary" column.... but that aside; I think you've got to be careful when ascribing explanations to superhero powers. (You're talking about a setting wherein atomic bombs sometimes give you super strength....)

Regeneration is usually confined to fixing stuff that’s already there. I used the term transmutation to refer to new stuff being added. (It’s an arbitrary term for something that doesn’t exist; but when I use that word, that’s what I mean.) If you wonder what happens to the extra bits when he reverts and don’t subscribe to the dust/dissipation idea, then maybe the extra mass is broken down and converted to energy to fuel the regrowth of the old cells.

>Some kind of new DNA marker - or foreign influence, like a virus and not just mutation?

In real life, mutations don’t just happen; they’re there from before you’re born. It IS possible to change DNA after an organism’s chromosomes are set: that’s what a retro-virus does. According to the proper Fantastic Four origin, cosmic rays changed them.... seemingly by altering their DNA, which WOULD be a mutation but doesn’t happen quite like that in real life.... UNLESS the mutation was already there and the radiation activated the change. (Which isn’t quite realistic either....) That’s kinda the Marvel explanation as to why not everyone who gets nuked gets powers. (AND why there’s such a proliferation of supers now: latent mutation due to the atomic bomb.)

....’course this ties in with my theory as to the secret to writing for the nerdly arts. “Realism” isn’t the goal. You’re not gonna come up with a realistic reason why a dude turns into a giant orange rock with superpowers. Instead, the goal is “internal consistency.” So once you say something works one way, it must ALWAYS work that way. Barring mitigating circumstances.

Don C.

[The Toyroom]

Hmmmm....

You're startin to slip into the "scary" column.... but that aside; I think you've got to be careful when ascribing explanations to superhero powers. (You're talking about a setting wherein atomic bombs sometimes give you super strength....)

I myself prescribe to the theory that "It's comic books"....go with the flow

[Brazoo]

Hmmmm....

You're startin to slip into the "scary" column....

Hahaha!

Hey man - This is IMPORTANT!

All kidding aside, I've been a little bogged down the last few days. I'm kinda hoping this nonsense is going to kickstart something in my brain and get me out of a mini-rut! Sorry for dragging others with me!

but that aside; I think you've got to be careful when ascribing explanations to superhero powers. (You're talking about a setting wherein atomic bombs sometimes give you super strength....)

Regeneration is usually confined to fixing stuff that’s already there. I used the term transmutation to refer to new stuff being added. (It’s an arbitrary term for something that doesn’t exist; but when I use that word, that’s what I mean.) If you wonder what happens to the extra bits when he reverts and don’t subscribe to the dust/dissipation idea, then maybe the extra mass is broken down and converted to energy to fuel the regrowth of the old cells.

Transmutation - I like that!

>Some kind of new DNA marker - or foreign influence, like a virus and not just mutation?

In real life, mutations don’t just happen; they’re there from before you’re born. It IS possible to change DNA after an organism’s chromosomes are set: that’s what a retro-virus does. According to the proper Fantastic Four origin, cosmic rays changed them.... seemingly by altering their DNA, which WOULD be a mutation but doesn’t happen quite like that in real life.... UNLESS the mutation was already there and the radiation activated the change. (Which isn’t quite realistic either....) That’s kinda the Marvel explanation as to why not everyone who gets nuked gets powers. (AND why there’s such a proliferation of supers now: latent mutation due to the atomic bomb.)

....’course this ties in with my theory as to the secret to writing for the nerdly arts. “Realism” isn’t the goal. You’re not gonna come up with a realistic reason why a dude turns into a giant orange rock with superpowers. Instead, the goal is “internal consistency.” So once you say something works one way, it must ALWAYS work that way. Barring mitigating circumstances.

Don C.

Aren't there a lot of studies that conclude that DNA isn't as fixed as we originally thought it was? Isn't that what neo-lamarckism and epigenetics studies are all about?

Not that this really matters, because you're right - mutations in the Marvel Universe play with their own rules. Even socially SOMEHOW people in the Marvel Universe make the distinction between born-with-mutations and people who were mutated later - which never made sense to me. Waz the dif if their altered DNA is still inheritable???

You're right, I guess I should have suggested an alien retrovirus and not just and alien virus altered him with the radiation that didn't effect the other 3 FF members.

I am trying to play with the idea of this fitting Marvel world and not our world though. These descriptions are probably dated because I haven't read The Fantastic Four in years - but to my knowledge the other members were physically altered but they didn't grow new organs. There seems to be a discrepancy there if this diagram is correct. I'm just trying to look for real life explanations that might help explain the discrepancy.

[Brazoo]

I myself prescribe to the theory that "It's comic books"....go with the flow

Are YOU trying to tell ME that Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew isn't real?!!!!!!!

[samurainoir]

In the current issues of Fantastic Four, Valeria and her genius classmates (which include Alex from the Power Pack, Artie from X-Factor) have been dedicating their collective intelligence in "curing" Ben by trying to activate his "off" state... which the other three members of the FF have been able to control.

It will be interesting to see if they will attempt to explain anything about the Thing's anatomy or if they are just using it as a future plot device.

[samurainoir]

Are YOU trying to tell ME that Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew isn't real?!!!!!!!

That one's easy... parallel earth where evolution chose cartoon animals as the dominant species.