Why back issues rule

[HardyGirl]

I'll tell ya why back issues rule for me:

Aside from the obvious, (that I love all things 70s), last year and the year before when I was teaching after school care, 1 one my boys asked his dad to loan me some classic Batman comics, 'cos he thought I'd like to read them. Another one gave me 1 of his uncle's vintage Marvel comics, (I think it was Godzilla), and yet another one was out w/ his mom to a vintage collector shop and bought a Sub-Mariner comic for me.

As much as I used to get on their cases for misbehaving, my kids loved me enough to think about me. That's why back issues rule for me! *sniff*

[jemboy2004]

well one reason comics are dying slowly is kids are no longer interested in them. I think it's all about the video games now so I don't blame dc or marvel for it. Back in the 70s and 80s how many kids had video games? It's the thing the kids are into now a days and I don't think comics has a chance to grab that big market again. I sure would love to see comics return but doubt it will.

[johnmiic]

For those of you who long for the glory days of comic books of your youth, which were not too serious, I highly recommend this ongoing series. The art is somewhat minimalist but the stories rock! This guy, Paul Grist, has created an entire universe of his own that resembles Marvel & DC at their heyday and includes pop-culture tv series character-types similar to Buffy, X-Files, Kolchack, etc. The plotting is often fast paced and stories are complex. It's somewhat a parody-but not entirely. If you are unsure try a major bookstore chain with an extensive graphic novel section and see if it's in stock and sample it. He even has a facebook page:

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[MegoSteve]

Jack Staff is awesome. Paul Grist is a vastly underrated talent and it's a shame that more people don't buy his book.

Regarding back issues... I like them more than new issues because they are cheaper. New comics cost $4 each. For that much, I can get a worn out Silver Age book or a pile of 50 centers.

To me, the best period in comics is 1958 through around 1965, give or take a few years in either direction. On the Marvel side, you have the creation of just about everything, on the DC side, you have all of the classic Silver Age Superman stories and the introduction of Supergirl, and on the Archie side, you have Dan DeCarlo's work. That period is awfully hard to beat in terms of creativity and innovation.

[ctc]

>I truly fear the comics industry is quickly coming to an end,

Well.... someone must not have been to a bookstore in a while. Comics as a whole are fine, superheroes are flailing. There’s a difference. And if you count online comics; comics aren’t doing fine, they’re DOMINATING!

>there will not be a new generation of comic readers to replace the old.

There will; but they’ll be more into speedlines and zipatone than capes and tights.

>let's see how long we can hook these suckers into buying all these mini/maxi series

I’d agree, but I think there’s also a touch of the writers WANTING to produce actual events but being hamstrung by the nature of a perpetual book. A lot of the ....er.... “mini” series I’ve read lately seem like actual events in the life of the character, but are neatly quarantined so when the NEXT writer comes in they can clearly see what needs to be amputated to make way for THEIR version of the character.

>Self-contained stories were becoming a rare item even in the 70's

Marvel in the 60's upped the game by focusing on continuity, so I’d think that’s where continuing stories for superhero books really started. Thing is; I don’t think they expected their books to last as long as they did, so by the 70's you have the bugaboos of “been there, done that” creeping in. (The first 50 issues of The Fantastic Four contain durned near EVERY FF story ever, in one form or another.) Marvel used to do something sneaky though: they’d produce single issue stories, but divide ‘em up so you’d get the first half at the end of an issue. Next issue would be the last half of the preceding story, the first half of the next.

The problem for the older/long term fan is that you start noticing fairly quickly; and once the novelty is gone, the kick diminishes rapidly.

>they milk what sells and new stuff gets less and less of a chance because it's too risky to start up a title with an unknown character

Oh, HELL yeah! I think the audience is to blame too. Folks don’t want something new, especially the older fans. They want the same old, but with the feeling it had when they first discovered it. (Which tragically, isn’t possible.) NEW stuff makes ‘em feel old and irrelevant. If people REALLY wanted new, we wouldn’t have so many folks scared for the comic industry ‘cos Marvel and DC ‘aint doing so good. (“NEW” is out there, just sometimes you have to read it right to left.)

>Back in the 70s and 80s how many kids had video games?

You never had an Atari? WE were the video game generation, not out kids. Video games are ubiquitous now. No; I think what killed superheroes for kids was the last twenty five years of catering to the aging “comic shop” crowd; the folks who knew all the ins and outs, and cared more for the names producing the book than the books themselves. Even the cartoons, which are nominally produced for a general, wide audience are still wrapped up in huge levels of oldster pandering. Would a kid, who’d been reading DC for two years REALLY be impressed by an appearance from the Shining Knight? Or is that put in more to appease the parents. (Who control the purse-strings when it comes to buying the toys, et al. “You don’t need any more of that ‘Naruto’ crap! HEY! A figure of the golden age Crazy Quilt! AWESOME!!!”)

Don C.

[enyawd72]

"Well.... someone must not have been to a bookstore in a while. Comics as a whole are fine, superheroes are flailing. There’s a difference. And if you count online comics; comics aren’t doing fine, they’re DOMINATING!"

Comics are most certainly NOT dominating. Industrywide new comic sales are down. You hear about second and third printings of Blackest Night, but what they don't tell you is even with three printings the total number of books sold pales in comparison to thirty years ago. And online comics? Please...can you pull an online comic out of a box and give it to your children or grandchildren?

As a comic fan and avid reader for more than thirty years...If I can walk into a comic shop and not find a single book to buy that looks even remotely interesting, save for a Marvel Masterworks or DC Archives reprint...we have a problem.

And I know I'm not the only one. I have three local shops within driving distance, and two of them say the paperback Masterworks series are outselling a lot of the new stuff coming out. Look at the most successful line of Marvel merchandise to date...the Bowen statues and busts. They sell like crazy, despite being expensive, go up in value on the secondary market, and are 90% 1970's based interpretations of Marvel characters.

Mattel is grasping this too, as evidenced by including characters like Killer Moth in their DCUC line. Who under 30 even knows who Killer Moth is? Just the fact that Mattel is making retro Megos shows that these guys are finally waking up as to what the fans want. And I really believe that if they can bring back that same level of fun and excitement that we all felt when we were growing up, a new generation of kids will fall in love with them just like we did.

At least I can hope...

[ctc]

>If I can walk into a comic shop and not find a single book to buy that looks even remotely interesting

See.... that's what I'm getting at. Outside the comic shops there are TONS of comics being sold: collections of Japanese books, European albums, compilations of old comics, collections of undergrounds.... Hell; even them Archie digests are available EVERYWHERE! Superheroes aren't doing so well, but they're not the sum total of the comic book universe. And kids read TONS of comics; just not the ones the old superhero crowd reads. (SOMEBODY'S been buying nearly 40 volumes of "Prince of Tennis.")

>As a comic fan and avid reader for more than thirty years..., save for a Marvel Masterworks or DC Archives reprint...we have a problem.

Well.... "we" as in the old superhero fan/comic shop crowd, yes. "We" as in everyone else, not so much. You gotta see the bigger picture.

>can you pull an online comic out of a box and give it to your children or grandchildren?

Okay; BIGGER than that! Comics as a medium are incredibly resilient. It's one of the few where ONE person can have their complete say, and it combines a lot of aspects of writing and movies, and as such allow for a great deal of impact. The physical aspects may change, but the medium will last. Even the subject matter changes. One day someone will decide to push superhero comics again. For kids who grew up surrounded by the Shonen Jump stuff it'll be weird and novel; and BAM! superhero boom once again. ('Course their parents who grew up READING the Shonen Jump stuff'll go all geezer about it. "Batman? FEH! Oooohhhh.... Naruto Super GT-Hyper Ninja Fighter 3! Now THAT'S a comic!")

It's the circle of life....

>Industrywide new comic sales are down.

They are; but look at the insane boom the Japanese stuff had for the last 10 years. And even with the decline, there's still a lot of stuff available.

>the fact that Mattel is making retro Megos shows that these guys are finally waking up as to what the fans want.

....what the OLDER fans want....

>if they can bring back that same level of fun and excitement that we all felt when we were growing up, a new generation of kids will fall in love with them just like we did.

That's the key to a lot of things. When I hear older fans say stuff like this I can't help but suspect; like I said, that they're not really pining for the comics themselves, but for the feeling they got reading them for the first time. That won't come back. Problem is; the older fans won't let go (even when the books are no longer FUN for them) and neither will the companies who keep trying to placate them. The reason Marvel and DC keep "adulting" up their books isn't to entice the kiddies, it's to hang onto their dimminishing audience.... an AGING audience. Like I said; they're still trying to cater to the 80's comic shop bunch. And they're losing because no matter what you do, it's going to be different and the old crowd will complain. ('Cos they're trying to recapture the FEELING.) And the potential NEW crowd will wander off 'cos they don't know why Batman with a little yellow circle is so significant, or who "Obscure McBadGuy" is, or why harkening back to the Byrne era is a big deal....

The kids are doing fine. They've got lots of comic book heroes. I can't help but wonder how many kids who's appreciation for Naruto meets with grunting disapproval from parents who's appreciation of the Teen Titans met with grunting diapproval from THEIR parents. It's the circle of life, and you'd think it'd end 'cos folks who obsess over Batman, or Nascar, or the Red Wings, or American Idol would understand those feelings in someone else; even if that person felt them for something they didn't.

Don C.

[kryptosmaster]

^^^^^OMG! DO YOU HAVE STOCK IN JAPANESE COMICS OR SOMETHING???
Talk about beating a dead horse.
Hellllooooo Willllburrrrrrr.
Most of "us" don't like that manga/anime stuff. That's why we don't consider them when talking about mainstream comics.
In fact, I'd rather completely stop reading comics if the only choice left was that japanese stuff.
Rich

[ctc]

>Most of "us" don't like that manga/anime stuff. That's why we don't consider them when talking about mainstream comics.

....but most of "you" go on about how comics are dying; and the Japanese stuff, AND European, AND online shows that they're not! It's a golden age for comics! Hell; even the much vaulted 60's and 70's Marvel and DC stuff is readily available. And the influx of non-superhero books is good for the supers, 'cos it means when the next generation of cartoonists takes over they'll have a much wider range of templates to draw from.

Don C.

[Earth 2 Chris]

I think in a lot of ways, the deconstructionist movement in super hero comics has slowly killed the genre. Creators like Miller and Moore took the characters in interesting directions, but they inspired others to do it as well...constantly. The characters weren't actually created for such tales, and therefore, after nearly 25 years of such doom and gloom self-loathing, the DC and Marvel Universes seem to be collapsing under their own weight.

There are of course a few shining examples that tried to buck the trend, but almost every creator thinks they have to go "mature" with men in brightly colored tights. And mature usually means wanton blood-letting and maiming. And now we have a generation of comic creators reared on the comics of the late 80s and onward, who probably think of the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age material as "quaint". And they have to one up their heroes, so things get darker, and darker...

Also, DC and Marvel's abandonment of the newstand for the direct market was a fatal flaw, IMHO. They didn't seem to put up much of a fight. I can see the appeal of the direct market of course, but why abandon the outlet that best brings in new readers? Did Disney quite licensing products for general retail when they opened their Disney Stores? You can still find Mickey Mouse t-shirts at Wal-Mart even though most malls have a Disney Store in them.

As a result of the over-examination and deconstruction of super heroes, the storylines have become decompressed. One issue of DC Comics Presents contained as much story as a 6-part story arc you'd find nowadays. The need to "trade it" is too great. Unfortunately this makes it almost impossible to "jump on" to a title. Sure, they have issues that are designed as "jump on" points, but if they have to do that, doesn't that tell us there is a major problem there?

So yeah, give me back issues.

Chris

[B-Lister]

E2C, I came into comics in the late 90s. Hal was already Parallax, and I really DON'T get why people love him.

to me he is and always will be nothing more than a killer. I can't wrap my head around why people build up a villain as a hero.

but I also love 60s and 70s Batman, and Silver Age oddballs.......so yeah.

[ctc]

>but they inspired others to do it as well...constantly.

I agree. Intellectual inbreeding is the worst thing ANY entertainment medium can do. Once the novelty wears off you’re kinda stuck until you find the next big thing. Hence the 90's collapse, and the independents swooping in.

>mature usually means wanton blood-letting and maiming.

Don’t forget the gratuitous T&A. My problem with the “adult” stuff is that it’s almost always cheapened by Marvel, DC and sometimes Image. Presented in a “plausibly deniable” way and it just goes away when the story is done. If you want violence, you should have to DEAL with the violence. Dead is dead, and there are effects beyond the obligatory “funeral for a friend” issue.

>why abandon the outlet that best brings in new readers?

Yeah. Never thought of it before, but why would they? Maybe; heady on the 90's boom, they thought it’d last forever and wanted tighter reigns over distribution? (Like when Marvel and DC were buying comic distributors....)

>One issue of DC Comics Presents contained as much story as a 6-part story arc you'd find nowadays.

Also true. AND noticeable, since most of the extra stuff doesn’t really add to the story, character, mythos, feel....

>Sure, they have issues that are designed as "jump on" points

They had the same thing back in the day: it was THAT SENTENCE ON THE SPLASH PAGE! Seriously DC, we don’t need the whole Batman story every arc! We know! That little line at the top of the old books was all you needed!

>we have a generation of comic creators reared on the comics of the late 80s and onward

When the current kids become the new cartoonists it’s nice that one of the things they’ll have to draw from are the OLD superhero comics, thanks to all the collections and reprints. Looking back I really do think the 80's were a DOWN period for superheroes.

Don C.

[The Toyroom]

Most of "us" don't like that manga/anime stuff. That's why we don't consider them when talking about mainstream comics.
In fact, I'd rather completely stop reading comics if the only choice left was that japanese stuff.

Agreed! I HATE manga/anime...Not appealing to me at all.

[The Toyroom]

E2C, I came into comics in the late 90s. Hal was already Parallax, and I really DON'T get why people love him.

to me he is and always will be nothing more than a killer. I can't wrap my head around why people build up a villain as a hero.

^ This can be applied here as well:

Talk about beating a dead horse.
Hellllooooo Willllburrrrrrr.

[ctc]

>I HATE manga/anime...Not appealing to me at all.

Which is fine; but I think it's odd to not consider them comics. Sure, you might not like them but if you're gonna talk about comics in general I'd think you'd NEED to discuss them, since for the last ten years they've been the mainstream. (Them and Archie.)

Don C.